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Toby Alderweireld

alekaras said:
Did we really miss Toby against Juve? If Son buries his chances or Kane's header is a millimeter to the right we'd be saying "see, we don't really miss Toby." You can always construct a narrative if are looking for one.
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I think we were naive defensively in the 2nd half at Wembley and could have done with Toby alongside Verts and Sanchez.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I agree but we can’t afford Toby at 180k a week. If Levy sticks to the wages as percentage of turnover of 49%, he has an extra 49m to play with. He gives Toby three times his wages. That’s 5m gone.

What is Harry and his agent thinking? “fudge that I want to treble or quadruple my wages if Toby is. I could get it at Madrid or somewhere and Ozil and Sanchez or on similar money. I’m the best player at the club.” Now that’s an extra £15m to £20m on one player. We’ve now blown 50% of our extra wage budget on two players. Alli, Eriksen, Jan, Dembele and Lloris then want their cut. Let’s say an extra £100k a week each on average. That’s another £25m. That’s our entire budget.

Now Dier, Big Vic, Lamela, Winks, Sanchez, Rose and Davies are at Levys door and he has nothing to give them. The only one not looking for extra is Sissoko because at 90k, he knows he’s stealing a living.
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No offense mate cos you're not the only one who has made this argument, but if the club applied that logic then we would never raise the wage bill due to the fear of the other players wanting similar money.
 
alekaras said:
The point is you can't say we missed a player because of just one game. We were fine in the other 31 games he didn't play.
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That's debatable. We've already conceded more goals than we did last season. Not saying that's entirely due to Toby's absence, it's also due to the loss of Wanyama and also Dembele's patchy form in the 1st half of the season but defensivley we haven't quite been as good this season.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I think we were naive defensively in the 2nd half at Wembley and could have done with Toby alongside Verts and Sanchez.
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But who would have missed out or gone off?

It’s days in hindsight but they scored with their only shots on target. That was the case with teams when Toby played too as were that good a side when we concede it’s generally from one f the few we haven’t dfended
 
Bedfordspurs said:
But who would have missed out or gone off?

It’s days in hindsight but they scored with their only shots on target. That was the case with teams when Toby played too as were that good a side when we concede it’s generally from one f the few we haven’t dfended
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Hard to say. Possibly Dier? Son was on fire at the time but Poch has shown he's not afraid to leave him out even when he's in great form.
 
Jurgen the German said:
No offense mate cos you're not the only one who has made this argument, but if the club applied that logic then we would never raise the wage bill due to the fear of the other players wanting similar money.
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I don’t agree. We’ve an extra 100m. Levy will put 40% to 50% in to wages. We offered to double Toby’s wages. Well do likewise with Kane, Alli, Eriksen, Jan and maybe Dembele. Toby won’t sign for less than 3 times his current salary. Say at an average of an extra 100k a week for the aforementioned 5, that’s £25m extra a year. We now have 5 of our top players sorted and still have half the budget left for the rest of the squad. That’s far more sustainable and fairer than putting our eggs in a few baskets and giving the rest nowt or raising wages to an unsustainable level.

No one would argue that we shouldn’t raise wages probably not even Levy. But we have to do it an a fair and sustainable way.
 
Does anyome have a way of showing the league table from the point that Alderweireld got injured?
 
Jurgen the German said:
No offense mate cos you're not the only one who has made this argument, but if the club applied that logic then we would never raise the wage bill due to the fear of the other players wanting similar money.
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It’s not an argument, it’s the entire reasons wage structures exist.

There is a tiering of players and it is established as to what it means to be the best player, a top player, a first 11 player, a squad player etc, and also probably weighted depending on position slightly.

If we make Toby the highest paid player, you’re going to get Kane and Eriksen justifiably asking for parity as minimum but more than likely more, as well they should. And the scale will have increased for every single player in the squad. As people say, Sissoko is probably the only one that wouldn’t demand a rise because he’s been used as a squad player but signed on first 11 wages, so he’s probably been earning 30-40k too much per week on his basic (although before this season wouldn’t have made the bonuses for playing that others would). Every other player would also want a rise, less they be paid 1/3rd or 1/4er of other players in the squad which isn’t how the balance has been established.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I think we were naive defensively in the 2nd half at Wembley and could have done with Toby alongside Verts and Sanchez.
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I don’t think Toby would have prevented what happened with Juve - I think that was a structural problem after a great move from Allegri.

It is interesting that we have conceded more this season though. I wonder where those goals have come from. Obviously we conceded 2 more at home to Chelsea than we did last year (Wanyama playing with an injury probably the biggest contributor there), and 2 goals at West Ham that could have been avoided (new boy Aurier getting sent off). Two more at Emirates Marketing Project in what was generally a poor performance by the entire team, again not sure Toby prevents it, and if memory serves we started with Winks and Dembele in midfield because we had no Wanyama and had to use Dier at the back. So Toby would have helped but only because there were so many injuries elsewhere.

We’ve currently conceded 1 more goal than in all of last season so let’s see where we end up after the last 6 games. But that’s where 6 of them seem to have come from.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
It’s not an argument, it’s the entire reasons wage structures exist.

There is a tiering of players and it is established as to what it means to be the best player, a top player, a first 11 player, a squad player etc, and also probably weighted depending on position slightly.

If we make Toby the highest paid player, you’re going to get Kane and Eriksen justifiably asking for parity as minimum but more than likely more, as well they should. And the scale will have increased for every single player in the squad. As people say, Sissoko is probably the only one that wouldn’t demand a rise because he’s been used as a squad player but signed on first 11 wages, so he’s probably been earning 30-40k too much per week on his basic (although before this season wouldn’t have made the bonuses for playing that others would). Every other player would also want a rise, less they be paid 1/3rd or 1/4er of other players in the squad which isn’t how the balance has been established.
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I would also add to this, agreement that you can’t be mad at anyone here. I don’t blame Toby or his agent at all for trying to get 180k a week if that is what is happening. And I don’t blame us for offering 130k. It has been shown he isn’t so important as to make the top earner.

Therefore it becomes a game of poker around something broader. Whether Toby can actually get that deal elsewhere, or whether staying here is the best bet, which may actually still be the case for him. Us signing Sanchez and him performing so well has strengthend our hand massively. Just wonderful to see that if he does go, it’s on our terms and we are already prepared. This is not a case of losing a Carrick, Modric, Berbatov or Bale against our will and having it throw chaos into our plans, or rendering our playing system unworkable. We’ve done without Toby since October, so the ball really is in his court.
 
I continue to feel it is very simple TBH.
I think Toby's consistent fitness has become very questionable. I think Davo has played superbly all-told since he came in during Oct. Jan is having his best season yet. And it "appears" that currently, Toby isn't giving it his all in training. I suspect the agent is playing hardball, and we have seen that when a player/agent plays hardball with Poch and the club, if there is any sniff of disrupting the group then they are annexed for a while. I think if Toby were to agree on a middle figure then Poch would welcome him back to the squad but n to necessarily the first 11 without question. I think Toby feels, at 29, that he wants to be a guaranteed starter and get paid as much as he can. I agree with BoL, this is beyond "personal", it is the club ding the right thing and not being sacked by emotions over smarts. To pay big money you need your top players available as regularly as possible, and Toby simply hasn't been, certainly this season and arguably for a chunk of last. Thus I genuinely conclude that he will move elsewhere. My guess remains Paris.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
It’s not an argument, it’s the entire reasons wage structures exist.

There is a tiering of players and it is established as to what it means to be the best player, a top player, a first 11 player, a squad player etc, and also probably weighted depending on position slightly.

If we make Toby the highest paid player, you’re going to get Kane and Eriksen justifiably asking for parity as minimum but more than likely more, as well they should. And the scale will have increased for every single player in the squad. As people say, Sissoko is probably the only one that wouldn’t demand a rise because he’s been used as a squad player but signed on first 11 wages, so he’s probably been earning 30-40k too much per week on his basic (although before this season wouldn’t have made the bonuses for playing that others would). Every other player would also want a rise, less they be paid 1/3rd or 1/4er of other players in the squad which isn’t how the balance has been established.
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I'll reiterate what I said in a previous post, we are going to have to give Kane for example a pay rise sooner or later, sooner rather than later judging by what Steff has said. This will more than likely trigger a chain reaction amongst our best 4/5 players who want a similar pay increase. It's inevitable if we want to keep our elite players.
 
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