The trigger for our down-turn?

[Moby]

I wouldnt put it down to a specific position, as there's a range of examples, but the trigger has been a gradual degrading of the squad and not keeping it fresh with high quality players. For example:

- Selling Walker and not getting in a top quality replacement. This was a downgrade
- Selling Trippier and not signing a replacement at all. Left us short of numbers
- Muddling through with only one left back last season, and who was a downgrade on Rose
- Selling Dembele (correct decision) without having a replacement lined up
- Not having a second CF for when Kane got injured (happened multiple times)
- Not planning proactively enough for the ageing of Toby and Jan

There's probably several others too. SAF highlighted the need to keep the Utd squad fresh during his tenure - our degrading of the squad and letting it go stale has been the opposite of this.

The root cause of all this is probably the financing of the stadium, even though Levy said that the stadium wouldnt impact transfers. You can debate whether the stadium is worth it or not, but it feels like teh leadership in the club have made the decision that they're happy for performances/results to be weaker for a few years...and that that is a price worth paying to get the stadium in place

Reckon you’ve nailed that.

 

[Legohamster]

FA Cup semi against United

you could see the players were utterly fudged off they had bottled it again and another with odd selections.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

I wouldnt put it down to a specific position, as there's a range of examples, but the trigger has been a gradual degrading of the squad and not keeping it fresh with high quality players. For example:

- Selling Walker and not getting in a top quality replacement. This was a downgrade
- Selling Trippier and not signing a replacement at all. Left us short of numbers
- Muddling through with only one left back last season, and who was a downgrade on Rose
- Selling Dembele (correct decision) without having a replacement lined up
- Not having a second CF for when Kane got injured (happened multiple times)
- Not planning proactively enough for the ageing of Toby and Jan

There's probably several others too. SAF highlighted the need to keep the Utd squad fresh during his tenure - our degrading of the squad and letting it go stale has been the opposite of this.

The root cause of all this is probably the financing of the stadium, even though Levy said that the stadium wouldnt impact transfers. You can debate whether the stadium is worth it or not, but it feels like teh leadership in the club have made the decision that they're happy for performances/results to be weaker for a few years...and that that is a price worth paying to get the stadium in place

All this, but also the influx of cash from thieves and tyrants, against which it was always going to be tricky to compete. And natural regression to the mean following a few years of wonderful overperformance.

 

[billyiddo]

We have had 1 contract issue and we don’t know what was said behind the scenes by the club and that player

player recruitment has been a big issue though. Someone thinks the French league is a great place for us to bu6 from which has never really worked out for us IMO (can’t think of one that’s been a genuine success but a lot of who have ranged between average to mediocre at times). The German league is a good hunting ground for us actually and 2 of our best signings have come from there in Son and Berbs

I’d love to see these Poch quotes you refer too because i don’t remember them as you say. I do know the manager signed a mega long term contract along with Kane and Alli and the season we didn’t sign anyone he was talking about us being brave. That’s also a then in his book isn’t it, being brave.

Alderweireld and Eriksen were both contract issues that dragged on and effected the first team and performances directly. I'm sure there were others at various times but not going to waste my time thinking to deep about something so obvious, same with Poch quotes - if you're going to play ignorant over obvious comments like how he should be being called the coach and not the manager and what that means then I'm not the person to spell it out

 

[Legohamster]

Not backing Mitchell and then abandoning the DoF style setup up altogether - all our problems come back to player contracts and recruitment.

Having a 'transfer committee' that leaves our best manager in decades feeling disgruntled and not part of the decision making process.

Not taking heed of said best managers warnings that the squad was facing a long and painful rebuild because of issues relating to player recruitment and then having the audacity to blame him when what he was warning us about came to fruition.

Mopo was happy to keep hold of CE to try and convince him to stay due to his relationship with the player.

again, as with the other thread Mopo also signed off players as well then was happy enough to sign a new deal - if he was that tinkled off he would have walked - which he didn’t.

he needs to take his share of the blame over the poor transfers.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Alderweireld and Eriksen were both contract issues that dragged on and effected the first team and performances directly. I'm sure there were others at various times but not going to waste my time thinking to deep about something so obvious, same with Poch quotes - if you're going to play ignorant over obvious comments like how he should be being called the coach and not the manager and what that means then I'm not the person to spell it out

He did say that
I do remember
But not sure how that’s got anything to do with transfers
He was appointed as a coach title and that got changed

 

[billyiddo]

He did say that
I do remember
But not sure how that’s got anything to do with transfers
He was appointed as a coach title and that got changed

He was saying he doesn't have the final say on transfers like a manager does and so should be called the coach as others are making those decisions for him.

You don't see how that relates to transfers? Ok...

 

[billyiddo]

Mopo was happy to keep hold of CE to try and convince him to stay due to his relationship with the player.

again, as with the other thread Mopo also signed off players as well then was happy enough to sign a new deal - if he was that tinkled off he would have walked - which he didn’t.

he needs to take his share of the blame over the poor transfers.

You don't know what he signed off on, especially not when he's saying that that power was not his (see quote discussed in other post)

Signing a new contract and sticking by the club out of a (now proven to be) misguided sense of loyalty does not equate to him being happy with every aspect of the job and decision being made. You can't use a contract deal in that way

 

[milo]

Not backing Mitchell and then abandoning the DoF style setup up altogether - all our problems come back to player contracts and recruitment.

Having a 'transfer committee' that leaves our best manager in decades feeling disgruntled and not part of the decision making process.

Not taking heed of said best managers warnings that the squad was facing a long and painful rebuild because of issues relating to player recruitment and then having the audacity to blame him when what he was warning us about came to fruition.

Yep. Not rebuilding from a position of strength. Poch wanted to refresh the squad and wasn't backed.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He was saying he doesn't have the final say on transfers like a manager does and so should be called the coach as others are making those decisions for him.

You don't see how that relates to transfers? Ok...

I don’t see the comments about job title relating to transfers no
And the guy signing the cheques at every club has final say. That’s quite normal isn’t it?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not backing Mitchell and then abandoning the DoF style setup up altogether - all our problems come back to player contracts and recruitment.

Having a 'transfer committee' that leaves our best manager in decades feeling disgruntled and not part of the decision making process.

Not taking heed of said best managers warnings that the squad was facing a long and painful rebuild because of issues relating to player recruitment and then having the audacity to blame him when what he was warning us about came to fruition.

Poch has to take some blame for the transfers. He was a big part of the decision making at the time.

In mitigation: There is always an element of luck to transfers, we had the stadium distractions, and we do have a lot of talented players (even if they don’t fit into a coherent system currently).


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Poch has to take some blame for the transfers. He was a big part of the decision making at the time.

In mitigation: There is always an element of luck to transfers, we had the stadium distractions, and we do have a lot of talented players (even if they don’t fit into a coherent system currently).


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Always an element of luck
But always an element of giving players games and time
Son was given loads of opportunity and has grown because of it
Jansenn by comparison wasn’t
Some players fit in and some don’t

 

[billyiddo]

I don’t see the comments about job title relating to transfers no
And the guy signing the cheques at every club has final say. That’s quite normal isn’t it?

The comments were in direct response to being questioned on transfer activity

 

[elltrev]

I think people have covered most of it. Trying to tie it all together in detail:

16/17, Poch’s third season, was our peak. We finished second on 86 points, and in the second half of the season actually got 47 points (which would equal 94 points across a whole season). We were undefeated at WHL. We were on fire. We just needed a little boost to take us over the line. Instead:

17/18
- Had to move to Wembley
- Sold Walker and replaced him with Aurier
- Permanently lost Wanyama and still haven’t replaced him
> Went backwards 1 position and 9 points

18/19
- Unexpectedly had almost another entire season at Wembley
- Also lost Dembele
- Bought NO-ONE
> Went backwards another position and another 6 points

19/20
- Bought Ndombele, Lo Celso and Sessegnon, but all had injury and fitness issues
- Initially didn’t sell or give new contracts to Eriksen, Rose, Aurier, Toby or Jan (all of whom we know for sure wanted to leave and/or were in the last year of their contract)
- Had lost and performed badly in the CL final, after an incredible and emotional run to get there

So I think a combination of our squad getting worse, our manager and squad having been together for a long time, three years of backward momentum, and having come so close but just missing out on PL title and CL (and to some extent domestic cups) - it all finally coalesced this season, and now we’re still in the depressive funk of the hangover.

I think it is 100% crystal clear that the stadium build is the root cause of all of this. What I don’t know is whether it’s close to 100% to blame, or whether Levy and co could have done anything differently in the financial circumstances e.g. successfully replaced Wanyama and/or Dembele in summer of 18/19. Will probably never know for sure. (And to be clear I’m not saying the stadium was a bad decision at the time - just that in hindsight it might actually have been counterproductive!)

For comparison, Liverpool finished 8th, 4th and 4th in Klopp’s first three seasons. Then in contrast to us they spent big on Van Dijk, Alisson and Fabinho, and that was the spark they needed to be CL and PL winners by two years later. Actually makes me feel quite depressed.

 

[El Guepardo]

I don’t understand why the financial constraints have been so strict in the past. To not sign anyone for 2 transfer windows is an obvious mistake.
There are those that think we have to be financially prudent, which I agree with...but the cost of not signing players may have included missing out on winning CL, and now this season not even qualifying for the CL. What are the financial implications of that?! Surely it would have been better to spend £100m on decent players that would have helped us to achieve our goals, and then not have such financial shortcomings through missing out?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The comments were in direct response to being questioned on transfer activity

Ok..
So he and no say in transfers then?

 

[elltrev]

I don’t understand why the financial constraints have been so strict in the past. To not sign anyone for 2 transfer windows is an obvious mistake.
There are those that think we have to be financially prudent, which I agree with...but the cost of not signing players may have included missing out on winning CL, and now this season not even qualifying for the CL. What are the financial implications of that?! Surely it would have been better to spend £100m on decent players that would have helped us to achieve our goals, and then not have such financial shortcomings through missing out?

I think it’s hard to understand the exact finances of the stadium. Maybe we just wouldn’t have been able to get another £100m of credit to fund that spending, before the CL revenue came in next season? I just don’t know.

 

[scaramanga]

He was badly advised when it comes to the book. Hanging players out to dry when you still manage them is not a good look. Whenever someone brings out a biography/autobiography, there will always be people who are upset because of the way they have been spoken about. Still don’t get why a manager with zero trophies thought it was a good idea to release a book.

Memoirs are always better

 

[Baleforce]

Or we couldn’t be sure that we’d get value from from the spend and decided not to risk it.

We’ve been very good at structuring deals to avoid throwing money away, even when players don’t work out or are sold in the last years of their contract we tend to make profit on the books for most deals.

 

[camspur]

I'll take you back to late April 2016, draw, draw, loss, loss and finishing 3rd in the league. Thinking we were Billy Big gonad*s for qualifying for the Champions League despiter throwing away the biggest chance we'd ever had of winning the Premier League.

Zero investment in the team in comparative terms https://www.givemesport.com/1495995...e-based-on-net-spend-since-the-summer-of-2015 and what appears to be a Board that would rather make a profit than win trophies.