The Overlap - some interesting comments from Ange

[braineclipse]

I don't know why, but I continue to be amazed by how easy people fall for anything a charlatan says.

- Talks about he didn't get 4 players that happen to be household names 18 months later, doesn't acknowledge club spent 280M for him, including overspending on his target Johnson which club has had to punt at earliest opportunity.
- Talks about how club didn't have winning mentality but takes a team to a set of points that after 10 games no other team has failed to get 4th, gets 5th, follows up with 17th following season, follows up by taking a team in European spots and failing to win a single game. His mentality was to throw the league?
- Took a lifetime to build a system/strategy that was worked out by every bum manager in the PL in 10 games
- No acknowledgment that VDV has basically come out and said he and Romero forced changes to Europa tactics, and that Ange's style caused injuries.
- Not to mention wtf was Semenyo going to do for Ange, run to edge of box and spam crosses to back post for Johnson to tap in? (because that's what he wanted Son to do), and Guehi? constantly run backward from half line high line until his hamstrings exploded?

I liked Ange pushing the mentality, calling out the media, internally pushing the club but his failure is on him, 100% (if he had managed 12th and Europa, he'd still be here), and like Conte (another charlatan that people love to quote) the lack of accountability of their own failures is amazing

Has there ever been a manager who has taken accountability of their own failures in public after being sacked? (Genuine question, not having a go, just can't remember any). Most will still be looking for that next job, coming out blaming the club makes them look better, taking accountability probably not so much.

Much like Frank his failures are not 100% on him. That's not to say it's not also on him, but not 100%.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Has there ever been a manager who has taken accountability of their own failures in public after being sacked? (Genuine question, not having a go, just can't remember any). Most will still be looking for that next job, coming out blaming the club makes them look better, taking accountability probably not so much.

Much like Frank his failures are not 100% on him. That's not to say it's not also on him, but not 100%.

It's not exclusive to football managers to be fair albeit probably more pronounced with them. In any work environment, people generally refuse to accept responsibility for failure and deflect blame wherever possible.

"Success has many fathers while failure is an orphan".

 

[braineclipse]

The bigger issue is the lack of strategy/objectives

- Personally I think the club stuttered under Levy because his overarching goal in first 20 odd years was to get us in and around top 4, and when we got there, some combination of not knowing what to do next (or how to do it) and financial restrictions kicked in, and as often the case, if you try to stay in place, others pass you.

For all this talk of wages, spend, squad quality, the big question is for what.
- Ange said he wanted Semenyo, Guehi, etc. for what? to push top 4, challenge for league? is that what the heirachy wanted/expected? (I'll leave out his inability to achieve it)

If we look at current squad

- Romero, Bentancur, Maddison, Deki, Solanke, Porro, Gallagher, Kudus, Spence, Palhinha, all represent good PL proven (lets say top 6-8) players, none for me scream need to replace
- VDV, Udogie, Xavi, Gray, Bergvall, Odobert, are the young side of team that have already shown decent promise, again no concerns here
- That's 16+ of a 25 man squad ready to go.
- Vusckovic, Moore, LWB represent a decent academy that should provide 2-3 players to squad in next year or so.

What the club needs is not some grand rebuild/reset but addition of core quality
- GK (upgrade Vic)
- CF (real competition for Solanke, upgrade Richi)
- CM, this depends on style incoming manager wants to play, could be a deep lying passer, could be a goal scorer, could be someone that just keeps possession/tempo

If your goal is top 4-6, those 3 players could be 70M types (e.g. United won't win the league with Mbeumo & Cunha)
If your goal is win something consistently, those players need to be 100M (see Liverpool and Scum)

I honestly don't think the wages are as big an issue at the 70M range, at 100M it sorts itself out (you will pay it or player won't come)

The club can't come out and say this is our strategy, but they need to have one internally and it doesn't feel that way right now.

Mostly agree. Only thing I don't agree with is those players having to be around 100m rather than around 70m.

There have been some really great deals done by us and others for way less than that. But we need to be willing to pay what it takes if it's a "he's THE guy" situation. I'm guessing most players that would apply to would have offers from bigger clubs come the summer anyway.

If there is a good internal strategy at the moment I must applaud the club on their ability to keep that secret. Not only from leaks and rumours, but from even being visible from the outside through their actions. Enigma cracking levels of secrecy here.

 

[Raziel]

Has there ever been a manager who has taken accountability of their own failures in public after being sacked? (Genuine question, not having a go, just can't remember any). Most will still be looking for that next job, coming out blaming the club makes them look better, taking accountability probably not so much.

Much like Frank his failures are not 100% on him. That's not to say it's not also on him, but not 100%.

No, and that's why you have to be very careful with what you take from their post failure PR spin.

Yet my point is, so many Spurs fans have lapped up what Jose & Conte (professional narcissists and deflectors) and Ange has just said as "gospel truth" without a single question back e.g. How would Semenyo work when you had a similar profile player in Son that you used in the wrong ways, did Guehi have superman hamstrings that would suddenly resolve your highline problems?

Again, club has a lot to answer for, but the reason we are such an easy target for media and jokes is we, our own fans, lap it up, maybe if we want to be a big club, the fans need to act it as well

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It's not exclusive to football managers to be fair albeit probably more pronounced with them. In any work environment, people generally refuse to accept responsibility for failure and deflect blame wherever possible.

"Success has many fathers while failure is an orphan".

Probably taking their cue from the world's great leaders

 

[Raziel]

Mostly agree. Only thing I don't agree with is those players having to be around 100m rather than around 70m.

There have been some really great deals done by us and others for way less than that. But we need to be willing to pay what it takes if it's a "he's THE guy" situation. I'm guessing most players that would apply to would have offers from bigger clubs come the summer anyway.

If there is a good internal strategy at the moment I must applaud the club on their ability to keep that secret. Not only from leaks and rumours, but from even being visible from the outside through their actions. Enigma cracking levels of secrecy here.

Entirely different conversation, hence why I mentioned earlier I disagreed with our recruitment but not in the way most others did.

I think Romero, VDV, Xavi, Gallagher, Deki, Bentancur, Porro, Udogie, Vuskovic all show where we should spend our money.

Take the money we spend on Richi, Johnson, Gray (like him) or the money we would have spent on Eze/MGW/Semenyo and spend it in Europe, you would get a much higher quality player.

 

[braineclipse]

Entirely different conversation, hence why I mentioned earlier I disagreed with our recruitment but not in the way most others did.

I think Romero, VDV, Xavi, Gallagher, Deki, Bentancur, Porro, Udogie, Vuskovic all show where we should spend our money.

Take the money we spend on Richi, Johnson, Gray (like him) or the money we would have spent on Eze/MGW/Semenyo and spend it in Europe, you would get a much higher quality player.

I think we agree. Other than on Gray, really happy we signed him. He's the kind of player we should have been signing all along and didn't, since we for whatever reasons mostly stopped signing super talented young players while Pochettino was still here and didn't start again until Paratici showed up.

 

[metalgear]

I don't know why, but I continue to be amazed by how easy people fall for anything a charlatan says.

- Talks about he didn't get 4 players that happen to be household names 18 months later, doesn't acknowledge club spent 280M for him, including overspending on his target Johnson which club has had to punt at earliest opportunity.
- Talks about how club didn't have winning mentality but takes a team to a set of points that after 10 games no other team has failed to get 4th, gets 5th, follows up with 17th following season, follows up by taking a team in European spots and failing to win a single game. His mentality was to throw the league?
- Took a lifetime to build a system/strategy that was worked out by every bum manager in the PL in 10 games
- No acknowledgment that VDV has basically come out and said he and Romero forced changes to Europa tactics, and that Ange's style caused injuries.
- Not to mention wtf was Semenyo going to do for Ange, run to edge of box and spam crosses to back post for Johnson to tap in? (because that's what he wanted Son to do), and Guehi? constantly run backward from half line high line until his hamstrings exploded?

I liked Ange pushing the mentality, calling out the media, internally pushing the club but his failure is on him, 100% (if he had managed 12th and Europa, he'd still be here), and like Conte (another charlatan that people love to quote) the lack of accountability of their own failures is amazing

he can only call it as he sees it or
he doesn't see his own weaknesses

 

[Legohamster]

Has there ever been a manager who has taken accountability of their own failures in public after being sacked? (Genuine question, not having a go, just can't remember any). Most will still be looking for that next job, coming out blaming the club makes them look better, taking accountability probably not so much.

Much like Frank his failures are not 100% on him. That's not to say it's not also on him, but not 100%.

Do many go on TV shows moaning and calling out the club (again just ours, not Forest where he worked for mentalist)

I think it will harm his chances of another job in the PL, his results domestically will put most off, him then opening slagging off a club will do for the rest

It wasn't very clever.

 

[SteveAWOL]

I don't know why, but I continue to be amazed by how easy people fall for anything a charlatan says.

- Talks about he didn't get 4 players that happen to be household names 18 months later, doesn't acknowledge club spent 280M for him, including overspending on his target Johnson which club has had to punt at earliest opportunity.
- Talks about how club didn't have winning mentality but takes a team to a set of points that after 10 games no other team has failed to get 4th, gets 5th, follows up with 17th following season, follows up by taking a team in European spots and failing to win a single game. His mentality was to throw the league?
- Took a lifetime to build a system/strategy that was worked out by every bum manager in the PL in 10 games
- No acknowledgment that VDV has basically come out and said he and Romero forced changes to Europa tactics, and that Ange's style caused injuries.
- Not to mention wtf was Semenyo going to do for Ange, run to edge of box and spam crosses to back post for Johnson to tap in? (because that's what he wanted Son to do), and Guehi? constantly run backward from half line high line until his hamstrings exploded?

I liked Ange pushing the mentality, calling out the media, internally pushing the club but his failure is on him, 100% (if he had managed 12th and Europa, he'd still be here), and like Conte (another charlatan that people love to quote) the lack of accountability of their own failures is amazing

Incredible that once his system had been sussed and those injuries to CBs became normalised our PL Points Per Game plummeted to 1.18 for the latter 19 months of Ange’s reign.

Thank feck that MvdV and Romero forced him to park-the-bus in closing stages of Europa League plus Bissouma stayed off the laughing gas long enough to boss midfield for a few games so we had some silverware to gloss over this precipitous decline in PL form; which we can only hope that Tudor is able to arrest.

Just a pity that crooked Joe’s kids have made such a mess of things that we replaced Ange with someone even less suited to our PL needs and their Transfer Committee continue to fail at filling the glaring holes in our squad which have been plain for everyone to see for several years; if only Ange had been brave enough to highlight this issue whilst he was still in charge…

 

[SteveAWOL]

Guess it shows how lowly he rated our midfielders and GK that none made the cut for his ultimate 5-a-side team…

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[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Incredible that once his system had been sussed and those injuries to CBs became normalised our PL Points Per Game plummeted to 1.18 for the latter 19 months of Ange’s reign.

Thank feck that MvdV and Romero forced him to park-the-bus in closing stages of Europa League plus Bissouma stayed off the laughing gas long enough to boss midfield for a few games so we had some silverware to gloss over this precipitous decline in PL form; which we can only hope that Tudor is able to arrest.

Just a pity that crooked Joe’s kids have made such a mess of things that we replaced Ange with someone even less suited to our PL needs and their Transfer Committee continue to fail at filling the glaring holes in our squad which have been plain for everyone to see for several years; if only Ange had been brave enough to highlight this issue whilst he was still in charge…

View attachment 21647

You probably want to watch the full interview with Ange before sticking with the ‘VDV and Romero forced him to change’ line. At the very least Ange offers an alternative and obviously fair perspective, and honestly it was always ridiculous stick to beat him with. And again I ask, if his system had been sussed then why were we doing ok in the top 7 up until our injuries started to bite after the City 4-0 win? We’ve clearly been ‘sussed’ far more this season.

Genuinely great watch for me though, the whole thing,

- commenting on the people running football clubs not really getting football. I actually never believed it until the decision to sack Ange and appoint Frank, and it’s unravelling.

- his point on the Europa win meaning he had the players in the palm of his hands and it would have been interesting to see what he could do. 100% agree with this and also that it would definitely have been better than whatever we had this season.

- open about where he’s taken risks with injuries and where he could have done better, eg VDV vs Chelsea.

- comments on leadership, and actually having won something being a really meaningful aspect. His choice to double down on the always in his second season comment. If he expects players to follow him, he has to project that confidence. Without wanting to stick the boot too much into Frank, he was just so far away from Ange’s level on this specific point.

- acknowledged the terrible decision to join Forest.

Loads of other good things. I really hope he lands somewhere great.

 

[thfcsteff]

You probably want to watch the full interview with Ange before sticking with the ‘VDV and Romero forced him to change’ line. At the very least Ange offers an alternative and obviously fair perspective, and honestly it was always ridiculous stick to beat him with. And again I ask, if his system had been sussed then why were we doing ok in the top 7 up until our injuries started to bite after the City 4-0 win? We’ve clearly been ‘sussed’ far more this season.

Genuinely great watch for me though, the whole thing,

- commenting on the people running football clubs not really getting football. I actually never believed it until the decision to sack Ange and appoint Frank, and it’s unravelling.

- his point on the Europa win meaning he had the players in the palm of his hands and it would have been interesting to see what he could do. 100% agree with this and also that it would definitely have been better than whatever we had this season.

- open about where he’s taken risks with injuries and where he could have done better, eg VDV vs Chelsea.

- comments on leadership, and actually having won something being a really meaningful aspect. His choice to double down on the always in his second season comment. If he expects players to follow him, he has to project that confidence. Without wanting to stick the boot too much into Frank, he was just so far away from Ange’s level on this specific point.

- acknowledged the terrible decision to join Forest.

Loads of other good things. I really hope he lands somewhere great.

I was left admiring him no less. Again, what he did in winning us that Final last season was an incredible achievement...

 

[SteveAWOL]

You probably want to watch the full interview with Ange before sticking with the ‘VDV and Romero forced him to change’ line. At the very least Ange offers an alternative and obviously fair perspective, and honestly it was always ridiculous stick to beat him with. And again I ask, if his system had been sussed then why were we doing ok in the top 7 up until our injuries started to bite after the City 4-0 win? We’ve clearly been ‘sussed’ far more this season.

Genuinely great watch for me though, the whole thing,

- commenting on the people running football clubs not really getting football. I actually never believed it until the decision to sack Ange and appoint Frank, and it’s unravelling.

- his point on the Europa win meaning he had the players in the palm of his hands and it would have been interesting to see what he could do. 100% agree with this and also that it would definitely have been better than whatever we had this season.

- open about where he’s taken risks with injuries and where he could have done better, eg VDV vs Chelsea.

- comments on leadership, and actually having won something being a really meaningful aspect. His choice to double down on the always in his second season comment. If he expects players to follow him, he has to project that confidence. Without wanting to stick the boot too much into Frank, he was just so far away from Ange’s level on this specific point.

- acknowledged the terrible decision to join Forest.

Loads of other good things. I really hope he lands somewhere great.

Whilst it’s true that Crooked Joe’s bungling kids have made an utter mess of things and sacking Ange on the back of breaking our trophy duck was an appalling decision, especially to install someone with as little pedigree as Frank simply because he worked with Lange previously, we suffered a couple of embarrassing defeats at the start of last season which (as you’ve said) occurred when he had a full strength squad at his disposal.

Defeat at Selhurst Park | Tottenham Hotspur

A disappointing performance saw us slip to defeat to Crystal Palace at Selhurst Park on Sunday afternoon.

www.tottenhamhotspur.com

The home side scored the only goal of the game through Jean-Philippe Mateta in the first half to collect their first Premier League win of the season and, while we dominated the possession statistics, Palace were better in every other metric with more shots on and off target.

First half double sees Ipswich take the points | Tottenham Hotspur

A disappointing afternoon ended in defeat at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium on Sunday as Ipswich Town collected their first Premier League win of the season thanks to a 2-1 victory.

www.tottenhamhotspur.com

The visitors scored twice in the first half through Sam Szomdics and Liam Delap to put themselves in a commanding position and, although we’d fought back to win our previous three league home matches after conceding first, there was to be no repeat this time around.

I concur that he deserved another season and would’ve been interesting to see whether Ange really had learnt the lessons he claims to have done in that eloquent interview but I remain unconvinced he was ever going to bring the glory days back to WHL; which Pochettino surely would’ve if he’d not been hamstrung by those transfer-less windows during the stadium rebuild.

I’m sure Postecoglou shall go on to have a decent career like (fellow UEFA trophy-duck breaker) Moyes though.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Whilst it’s true that Crooked Joe’s bungling kids have made an utter mess of things and sacking Ange on the back of breaking our trophy duck was an appalling decision, especially to install someone with as little pedigree as Frank simply because he worked with Lange previously, we suffered a couple of embarrassing defeats at the start of last season which (as you’ve said) occurred when he had a full strength squad at his disposal.

Defeat at Selhurst Park | Tottenham Hotspur

A disappointing performance saw us slip to defeat to Crystal Palace at Selhurst Park on Sunday afternoon.

www.tottenhamhotspur.com

First half double sees Ipswich take the points | Tottenham Hotspur

A disappointing afternoon ended in defeat at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium on Sunday as Ipswich Town collected their first Premier League win of the season thanks to a 2-1 victory.

www.tottenhamhotspur.com

I concur that he deserved another season and would’ve been interesting to see whether Ange really had learnt the lessons he claims to have done in that eloquent interview but I remain unconvinced he was ever going to bring the glory days back to WHL; which Pochettino surely would’ve if he’d not been hamstrung by those transfer-less windows during the stadium rebuild.

I’m sure Postecoglou shall go on to have a decent career like (fellow UEFA trophy-duck breaker) Moyes though.

Yeah man I’m the biggest Poch fan going, and I think I agree that Poch is a level above Ange in terms of a manager we should bet on for longevity with us. Ange is a roller coaster where as Poch seemed to have a clear plan to elevate the club, and for some reason somewhere along the journey we stopped decided to trust him.

Under Ange, we did lose games we shouldn’t have at the beginning of the season last, Ipswich being a key one. But we also had some massive wins. I think a club that is primed for success or an an upswing can still lose the odd game like that. I just go back to…at the point where we beat Emirates Marketing Project 4-0, we were in a good spot. At that point we could have pushed on or fallen. We fell because the injuries had already started to bite (Davies and Dragusin started at centre back that game) and we slid.

 

[Raziel]

You probably want to watch the full interview with Ange before sticking with the ‘VDV and Romero forced him to change’ line. At the very least Ange offers an alternative and obviously fair perspective, and honestly it was always ridiculous stick to beat him with. And again I ask, if his system had been sussed then why were we doing ok in the top 7 up until our injuries started to bite after the City 4-0 win? We’ve clearly been ‘sussed’ far more this season.

Genuinely great watch for me though, the whole thing,

- commenting on the people running football clubs not really getting football. I actually never believed it until the decision to sack Ange and appoint Frank, and it’s unravelling.

- his point on the Europa win meaning he had the players in the palm of his hands and it would have been interesting to see what he could do. 100% agree with this and also that it would definitely have been better than whatever we had this season.

- open about where he’s taken risks with injuries and where he could have done better, eg VDV vs Chelsea.

- comments on leadership, and actually having won something being a really meaningful aspect. His choice to double down on the always in his second season comment. If he expects players to follow him, he has to project that confidence. Without wanting to stick the boot too much into Frank, he was just so far away from Ange’s level on this specific point.

- acknowledged the terrible decision to join Forest.

Loads of other good things. I really hope he lands somewhere great.

Frank being brick does not absolve Ange of anything, or the other way around.

Facts show Ange got progressively worse from game 11 of his tenure in the league, he absolutely was sussed out, the fact that he got zero wins out of his Forest time aligns to that (regardless of good choice or not). Both managers need to take a long hard look at themselves, regardless of politics, squad quality, injuries you can't excuse your way out of winning 3-4 home games in 12 months .. literally anyone would be expected to do better.

Of course the players influenced him in the Europa change, has anyone ever seen Ange play 4-2-4 in his career? ever?

Ange was never going to do better this season, he allowed the players to fail in PL (call it prioritization, call it whatever, he of all people should know better), he was suddenly going to rock up and say, "hey boys, it's different, those flimflam performances from you and my absolute failure to take a single learning from cup games last year, we change that now?"

The guy is a charlatan, he talks the talk, listen to him without your brain on, without stopping to go "wait a minute, what happened doesn't back up your story" and you see why he can inspire, but none of that changes his system failed at this level and his failure to acknowledge that really (some BS about we need better player, so does every manager ever in the history of the game) is the proof of that.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Frank being brick does not absolve Ange of anything, or the other way around.

Facts show Ange got progressively worse from game 11 of his tenure in the league, he absolutely was sussed out, the fact that he got zero wins out of his Forest time aligns to that (regardless of good choice or not). Both managers need to take a long hard look at themselves, regardless of politics, squad quality, injuries you can't excuse your way out of winning 3-4 home games in 12 months .. literally anyone would be expected to do better.

Of course the players influenced him in the Europa change, has anyone ever seen Ange play 4-2-4 in his career? ever?

Ange was never going to do better this season, he allowed the players to fail in PL (call it prioritization, call it whatever, he of all people should know better), he was suddenly going to rock up and say, "hey boys, it's different, those flimflam performances from you and my absolute failure to take a single learning from cup games last year, we change that now?"

The guy is a charlatan, he talks the talk, listen to him without your brain on, without stopping to go "wait a minute, what happened doesn't back up your story" and you see why he can inspire, but none of that changes his system failed at this level and his failure to acknowledge that really (some BS about we need better player, so does every manager ever in the history of the game) is the proof of that.

I just disagree on the thrust of this and the idea that Ange is a charlatan.

It’s going to be hard to maintain a 10 wins from 11 games level of form so of course there was a drop. The two bad runs in the first season consist of the Chelsea home game and following, where we lose Udogie and Romero to suspension and I think also pick two injuries, and then the end of the season where we play the top 4 all in a row including the weird City game that half the fans shared to lose. But if you actually look at the results through the course of the rest of the season there were plenty of big wins and good runs of form. Ditto season 2 until after the Emirates Marketing Project 4-0.

So I just don’t agree that he was sussed out, and I don’t think you can just say ‘ignore the injuries’ or anything else because it’s a massive part of the context. He played a teenage central midfielder in his debut season in the top flight at centre back for most of his last year, because he had to.

And personally I think it’s mad to think that Ange wouldn’t do better this season. I think the fact that he actually won the trophy meant the players would have been behind them, because he promised them success after the toughest season of their lives and delivered it. I think the players knew what they went through, and why last season ended up the way it did. And would absolutely have wanted to push on.

I watched the whole interview and I don’t think anything he says is inconsistent. Of course if you want to take literal VDV’s words and completely disregard Ange’s, then of course you give him no credit for the Europa and all credit to the centre backs. But he gives a well reasoned explanation for what he did and why he did it. I also thought it was interesting that he was perfectly willing to acknowledge his bad decisions - that playing VDV in the Chelsea game last season was a risk. That joining Forest was a mad decision that everyone was advising him against. It wasn’t like he just swept over everything. He was perfectly fair.

As for Forest proving he was sussed, it’s an extremely black and white way of looking at something. He correctly deduced that the players weren’t desperate for what he offers, and liked playing under Nuno. He also joined mid season and was expected to implement his style immediately. It just wasn’t going to work. But it’s not the style or system itself, it’s the context. In the same way our players were begging for some more aggressive football after years of struggle post Poch, they bought into him more quickly. Ange acknowledged he didn’t really speak to Maranakis enough about the expectations, and went in too confident in changing the style. So it’s a lesson he learned that should have been obvious, you can do it when the club and the players actually want what you bring, by the same token I think the players never wanted what Frank brought, I think they were happy with Ange. But mad owners think they know better.

 

[Lemonade Money]

The guy is a charlatan, he talks the talk

He does football for living, his whole life, is well respected, and he wins stuff.
Let's hear what you've achieved in football?

 

[Mikey10]

Do many go on TV shows moaning and calling out the club (again just ours, not Forest where he worked for mentalist)

I think it will harm his chances of another job in the PL, his results domestically will put most off, him then opening slagging off a club will do for the rest

It wasn't very clever.

Can’t see him ever getting near another PL job tbh. He was incredibly lucky to get one, never mind two. Found out after 10 games in the first and - surprise surprise - that hadn’t been forgotten when his dodgy Greek mate appointed him again.