The Overlap - some interesting comments from Ange

[braineclipse]

I don't know why, but I continue to be amazed by how easy people fall for anything a charlatan says.

- Talks about he didn't get 4 players that happen to be household names 18 months later, doesn't acknowledge club spent 280M for him, including overspending on his target Johnson which club has had to punt at earliest opportunity.
- Talks about how club didn't have winning mentality but takes a team to a set of points that after 10 games no other team has failed to get 4th, gets 5th, follows up with 17th following season, follows up by taking a team in European spots and failing to win a single game. His mentality was to throw the league?
- Took a lifetime to build a system/strategy that was worked out by every bum manager in the PL in 10 games
- No acknowledgment that VDV has basically come out and said he and Romero forced changes to Europa tactics, and that Ange's style caused injuries.
- Not to mention wtf was Semenyo going to do for Ange, run to edge of box and spam crosses to back post for Johnson to tap in? (because that's what he wanted Son to do), and Guehi? constantly run backward from half line high line until his hamstrings exploded?

I liked Ange pushing the mentality, calling out the media, internally pushing the club but his failure is on him, 100% (if he had managed 12th and Europa, he'd still be here), and like Conte (another charlatan that people love to quote) the lack of accountability of their own failures is amazing

Has there ever been a manager who has taken accountability of their own failures in public after being sacked? (Genuine question, not having a go, just can't remember any). Most will still be looking for that next job, coming out blaming the club makes them look better, taking accountability probably not so much.

Much like Frank his failures are not 100% on him. That's not to say it's not also on him, but not 100%.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Has there ever been a manager who has taken accountability of their own failures in public after being sacked? (Genuine question, not having a go, just can't remember any). Most will still be looking for that next job, coming out blaming the club makes them look better, taking accountability probably not so much.

Much like Frank his failures are not 100% on him. That's not to say it's not also on him, but not 100%.

It's not exclusive to football managers to be fair albeit probably more pronounced with them. In any work environment, people generally refuse to accept responsibility for failure and deflect blame wherever possible.

"Success has many fathers while failure is an orphan".

 

[braineclipse]

The bigger issue is the lack of strategy/objectives

- Personally I think the club stuttered under Levy because his overarching goal in first 20 odd years was to get us in and around top 4, and when we got there, some combination of not knowing what to do next (or how to do it) and financial restrictions kicked in, and as often the case, if you try to stay in place, others pass you.

For all this talk of wages, spend, squad quality, the big question is for what.
- Ange said he wanted Semenyo, Guehi, etc. for what? to push top 4, challenge for league? is that what the heirachy wanted/expected? (I'll leave out his inability to achieve it)

If we look at current squad

- Romero, Bentancur, Maddison, Deki, Solanke, Porro, Gallagher, Kudus, Spence, Palhinha, all represent good PL proven (lets say top 6-8) players, none for me scream need to replace
- VDV, Udogie, Xavi, Gray, Bergvall, Odobert, are the young side of team that have already shown decent promise, again no concerns here
- That's 16+ of a 25 man squad ready to go.
- Vusckovic, Moore, LWB represent a decent academy that should provide 2-3 players to squad in next year or so.

What the club needs is not some grand rebuild/reset but addition of core quality
- GK (upgrade Vic)
- CF (real competition for Solanke, upgrade Richi)
- CM, this depends on style incoming manager wants to play, could be a deep lying passer, could be a goal scorer, could be someone that just keeps possession/tempo

If your goal is top 4-6, those 3 players could be 70M types (e.g. United won't win the league with Mbeumo & Cunha)
If your goal is win something consistently, those players need to be 100M (see Liverpool and Scum)

I honestly don't think the wages are as big an issue at the 70M range, at 100M it sorts itself out (you will pay it or player won't come)

The club can't come out and say this is our strategy, but they need to have one internally and it doesn't feel that way right now.

Mostly agree. Only thing I don't agree with is those players having to be around 100m rather than around 70m.

There have been some really great deals done by us and others for way less than that. But we need to be willing to pay what it takes if it's a "he's THE guy" situation. I'm guessing most players that would apply to would have offers from bigger clubs come the summer anyway.

If there is a good internal strategy at the moment I must applaud the club on their ability to keep that secret. Not only from leaks and rumours, but from even being visible from the outside through their actions. Enigma cracking levels of secrecy here.

 

[Raziel]

Has there ever been a manager who has taken accountability of their own failures in public after being sacked? (Genuine question, not having a go, just can't remember any). Most will still be looking for that next job, coming out blaming the club makes them look better, taking accountability probably not so much.

Much like Frank his failures are not 100% on him. That's not to say it's not also on him, but not 100%.

No, and that's why you have to be very careful with what you take from their post failure PR spin.

Yet my point is, so many Spurs fans have lapped up what Jose & Conte (professional narcissists and deflectors) and Ange has just said as "gospel truth" without a single question back e.g. How would Semenyo work when you had a similar profile player in Son that you used in the wrong ways, did Guehi have superman hamstrings that would suddenly resolve your highline problems?

Again, club has a lot to answer for, but the reason we are such an easy target for media and jokes is we, our own fans, lap it up, maybe if we want to be a big club, the fans need to act it as well

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It's not exclusive to football managers to be fair albeit probably more pronounced with them. In any work environment, people generally refuse to accept responsibility for failure and deflect blame wherever possible.

"Success has many fathers while failure is an orphan".

Probably taking their cue from the world's great leaders

 

[Raziel]

Mostly agree. Only thing I don't agree with is those players having to be around 100m rather than around 70m.

There have been some really great deals done by us and others for way less than that. But we need to be willing to pay what it takes if it's a "he's THE guy" situation. I'm guessing most players that would apply to would have offers from bigger clubs come the summer anyway.

If there is a good internal strategy at the moment I must applaud the club on their ability to keep that secret. Not only from leaks and rumours, but from even being visible from the outside through their actions. Enigma cracking levels of secrecy here.

Entirely different conversation, hence why I mentioned earlier I disagreed with our recruitment but not in the way most others did.

I think Romero, VDV, Xavi, Gallagher, Deki, Bentancur, Porro, Udogie, Vuskovic all show where we should spend our money.

Take the money we spend on Richi, Johnson, Gray (like him) or the money we would have spent on Eze/MGW/Semenyo and spend it in Europe, you would get a much higher quality player.

 

[braineclipse]

Entirely different conversation, hence why I mentioned earlier I disagreed with our recruitment but not in the way most others did.

I think Romero, VDV, Xavi, Gallagher, Deki, Bentancur, Porro, Udogie, Vuskovic all show where we should spend our money.

Take the money we spend on Richi, Johnson, Gray (like him) or the money we would have spent on Eze/MGW/Semenyo and spend it in Europe, you would get a much higher quality player.

I think we agree. Other than on Gray, really happy we signed him. He's the kind of player we should have been signing all along and didn't, since we for whatever reasons mostly stopped signing super talented young players while Pochettino was still here and didn't start again until Paratici showed up.

 

[metalgear]

I don't know why, but I continue to be amazed by how easy people fall for anything a charlatan says.

- Talks about he didn't get 4 players that happen to be household names 18 months later, doesn't acknowledge club spent 280M for him, including overspending on his target Johnson which club has had to punt at earliest opportunity.
- Talks about how club didn't have winning mentality but takes a team to a set of points that after 10 games no other team has failed to get 4th, gets 5th, follows up with 17th following season, follows up by taking a team in European spots and failing to win a single game. His mentality was to throw the league?
- Took a lifetime to build a system/strategy that was worked out by every bum manager in the PL in 10 games
- No acknowledgment that VDV has basically come out and said he and Romero forced changes to Europa tactics, and that Ange's style caused injuries.
- Not to mention wtf was Semenyo going to do for Ange, run to edge of box and spam crosses to back post for Johnson to tap in? (because that's what he wanted Son to do), and Guehi? constantly run backward from half line high line until his hamstrings exploded?

I liked Ange pushing the mentality, calling out the media, internally pushing the club but his failure is on him, 100% (if he had managed 12th and Europa, he'd still be here), and like Conte (another charlatan that people love to quote) the lack of accountability of their own failures is amazing

he can only call it as he sees it or
he doesn't see his own weaknesses

 

[Legohamster]

Has there ever been a manager who has taken accountability of their own failures in public after being sacked? (Genuine question, not having a go, just can't remember any). Most will still be looking for that next job, coming out blaming the club makes them look better, taking accountability probably not so much.

Much like Frank his failures are not 100% on him. That's not to say it's not also on him, but not 100%.

Do many go on TV shows moaning and calling out the club (again just ours, not Forest where he worked for mentalist)

I think it will harm his chances of another job in the PL, his results domestically will put most off, him then opening slagging off a club will do for the rest

It wasn't very clever.