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The Goon Thread - Officially Second In A One Horse Race

Liverpool are not "bigger" then these teams but could very well win the title this year with a young manager who is just 41 years old. They have also won the Champions League, the FA Cup and the League Cup in the time since Arsenal have won a trophey.

I've always considered Liverpool to be the 2nd biggest team in England after Man U.

Liverpool are absolutely "bigger" than arsenal in overall stature imo. its precisely because wenger has done so well that some arsenal fans think they have a divine right to be above them.

the problem for clubs like us and arsenal is that 3rd/4th place in the league is pretty much the bottle neck as long as there are the likes of abramovic and mansour who are willing to absolutely obliterate the spending potential of teams like us.

Its about winning and clubs CAN break this monopoly and win things. With all the money, players, management stability, and experience of winning things, Arsenal have failed miserabley this last (almost) decade.

If "failing" means not winning trophies. then i guess arsene wenger has failed in the last decade. but in that case, 90% of all football manager's have failed too. you mention "money, players, management stability, and experience". of that list, the only thing that really matters in terms of winning trophies is money. look at the title winners in the past decade. the only common denominator is money (and the worldclass players that come with the money). But management stability and experience plays little part. look at city and chelsea.

the problem for wenger is; he has done so incredibly well but fans do not understand quite how well he has done/ and is doing. and because of this, he is getting compared to managers like mourinho on the basis of trophies, and arsenal are getting compared to the likes of city. in reality, when you compare arsenal to teams they should be being compared to; the likes of inter milan, tottenham, liverpool, valencia etc, they are doing incredibly well. and arsene wenger is doing phenomenally well.

And for me, "failing" means not acheiving the objective's set by your employers (to which managers would have agreed to upon taking up the job/signing the contract) and ultimately getting sacked. And in this sense, mourinho is the failure, not wenger.
 
Goons i know have the wenger hokey kokey well and truly in motion. Last week Wenger in, this week Wenger out..
 
Wenger should have delivered more for Arsenal over the second half of his time there no doubt at all
 
Seriously, where is Luda?
Been a bit of a week. My one week old daughter is having a terrible time of it with wind. She just won't settle.

Anyways, didn't see the game but sounds like the same old arsenal! They'll probably limp home to fourth, might win the FA Cup then they'll fail to add the players they need in the summer.

They are the weakest team physically in the prem.
 
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But that argument is flawed. Its not a case of being "bigger" or "smaller" then the likes of City, Utd or Chelsea. Its about winning and clubs CAN break this monopoly and win things. With all the money, players, management stability, and experience of winning things, Arsenal have failed miserabley this last (almost) decade.

Liverpool are not "bigger" then these teams but could very well win the title this year with a young manager who is just 41 years old. They have also won the Champions League, the FA Cup and the League Cup in the time since Arsenal have won a trophey.

The worst thing about it is that it could / should have been us in that position. We are very lucky that Arsenal have Wenger as manager - if they had the balls to sack him and they had a "winning" manager these last 8 years I shudder to think of the tropheys they would have won (and humiliation we would have faced). It will be a dark day for us when Wenger goes. I have no doubt in my mind that a new manager will have them back winning tropheys. Its crazy to think that Arsenal have'nt won a trophey in over 8 years and we STILL have'nt overtaken them. What does that say about us. We had our chance (chances) and we blew it. Will that chance ever come again ?

This squad without Wenger, would be like United without Fergie. They would lose at least 10 points per season. A new manager would need to bring in his own new players and rebuild. Anyone, including Scum supporters, who think Wenger is a rubbish coach is simply deluded. What is missing is a good transfer policy. Had Wenger and Levy teamed up, it would have been a perfect match imo. Levy has been searching for the right manager since his tenure. Rednapp is the closest he's come to finding the right one (shame he sacked him!). Wenger has suffered since Dean left and he has signed 2 distinctly average players for every 1 good one, all on top wages. If Wenger could focus on coaching only, and had the talent at his disposal, he would be challenging Chelsea.
 
Been a bit of a week. My one week old daughter is having a terrible time of it with wind. She just won't settle.

Anyways, didn't see the game but sounds like the same old arsenal! They'll probably limp home to fourth, might win the FA Cup then they'll fail to add the players they need in the summer.

They are the weakest team physically in the prem.

:ross:

Sounds like hot air. What player do you think 'they' need? What do you think of Mr W?
 
So arsenal have lost 6-3 to Emirates Marketing Project, 6-0 to Chelsea, 5-1 to Liverpool and they actually lost to Man Utd too.

Does this make Wenger as **** as AVB or?.. Such a shame we didn't actually back AVB and what he wanted.
 
So arsenal have lost 6-3 to Emirates Marketing Project, 6-0 to Chelsea, 5-1 to Liverpool and they actually lost to Man Utd too.

Does this make Wenger as **** as AVB or?.. Such a shame we didn't actually back AVB and what he wanted.

Puts our results against them into respective, doesn't it. Such a massive mistake to sack AVB. Back to square one for Spurs, once again.
 
Wenger should have delivered more for Arsenal over the second half of his time there no doubt at all

really?

everyone thinks that they should've won more. if you read fergie's autobiography, he thinks man utd should've won more. i have no doubt all the chelsea fans think they should've won more. same with liverpool. same with Emirates Marketing Project especially with the cup final defeats. and even us. we think we should've finished top 4 more often.

the fact of the matter is, there is a limited amount of trophies every year and a limited number of top 4 spots.

wenger has done exceptionally well in his arsenal career. theres just no two ways about it.
 
:ross:

Sounds like hot air. What player do you think 'they' need? What do you think of Mr W?

I dunno who they need. I'd guess a mobile forward would help their playmakers. Remy perhaps?

They look like they need some power in the midfield too. So either Diaby to get fit or someone like Luis Gustavo.

Who do you think they need?

Doubt it's hot air. Her milk is room temp, but it is trapped wind.
 
really?

everyone thinks that they should've won more. if you read fergie's autobiography, he thinks man utd should've won more. i have no doubt all the chelsea fans think they should've won more. same with liverpool. same with Emirates Marketing Project especially with the cup final defeats. and even us. we think we should've finished top 4 more often.

the fact of the matter is, there is a limited amount of trophies every year and a limited number of top 4 spots.

wenger has done exceptionally well in his arsenal career. theres just no two ways about it.

yes, really - not so much just about trophies but he has been coasting along achieving the bare minimum for the last 500 games or so, scraping 4th over a team whose wage bill they dwarf. he has tied his arms behind his back by introducing the wage structure which saw players like Bendntner earn 60k a week whilst not being able to offer his better players more money and restricting the level of players they could attract. It was a failed system and had they gone for a more traditional approach to player wages they would have been closer to challenging for the title than they were fighting for 4th without spending more money than they did.

they outspend us to the tune of 50m every season on player wages and are much closer to those above them in that respect than we are to them, yet who have they been finishing closest to over this time period? simply put he has wasted a vast amount of money over the past 6 or 7 years.

Arsenal fans always come out with the transfer fee angle but our net spend compared to theirs over this time period is nowhere near as big as people will think - since the season they sold Henry they are +20m for transfers whilst we are -90m, a difference of 110m over 7 seasons (an average of 15m difference a season on transfers) so it's clear to me that Wenger has mishandled the money available to him (35m a year more than us on wages and transfers combined)

in fact if we look back over the the past 5 seasons, in terms of transfers we are lot more neck and neck in terms of net spend - 07/08 and 08/09 seeing us spend a total of 110m (more or less) so we've turned a profit in the years since - meaning in the past 5 seasons Arsene Wenger has had close to 250m more than us to spend on his squad (wages and transfer fee's) - yet have achieved nothing other than to scrape 4th place season after season.

If i was an Arsenal fan id be very ****ed off with the way he has mishandled the clubs finances.
 
Arsenal have cancelled Arsene Wenger’s pre-Swansea press conference that was scheduled for tomorrow morning.

Having avoided the media after yesterday’s defeat against Chelsea it would appear the Frenchman remains in no mood to publicly dissect his side’s abject performance. The club have informed both broadcast and written press that quotes from an in-house interview will be made available instead.

It’s an unusual move from the Frenchman who has always fronted up to journalists throughout his 17 years in charge and a clear sign that behind the scenes there’s a real ****storm going down.

As further evidence of the apparent lockdown, the club’s Twitter account hasn’t posted anything in over 24 hours while the entire squad appears to have been instructed to stay off social media.

The silence is deafening right now.
 
yes, really - not so much just about trophies but he has been coasting along achieving the bare minimum for the last 500 games or so, scraping 4th over a team whose wage bill they dwarf.

Firstly, I would hardly call pipping teams like us and Liverpool to a top 4 spot after a number of hard-fought seasons; “coasting”. And at times they were finishing above teams like Chelsea too, whilst never dropping below 4th spot.

You may say a top 4 spot is the “bare minimum”. But surely there is an argument to say that a top 4 spot is the “absolute maximum” given that there are a number of teams who can absolutely crush arsenal’s spending potential.

And they may “dwarf” our wage bill now. But that’s credit to wenger in my opinion, for putting arsenal into a position whereby they can do that. Because wenger has continually gotten arsenal into a champions league position, they have been able to do this. Lets not forget however, arsenal have regularly finished above Liverpool in the past decade despite Liverpool being on an equal or stronger financial plain.



he has tied his arms behind his back by introducing the wage structure which saw players like Bendntner earn 60k a week whilst not being able to offer his better players more money and restricting the level of players they could attract. It was a failed system and had they gone for a more traditional approach to player wages they would have been closer to challenging for the title than they were fighting for 4th without spending more money than they did.

Bendtner on 60k a week is not nearly as bad as some in the media have made it out to be (and I suspect in reality, he is on slightly less than that). When he got that contract, he was about 23 years old if I remember correctly. And had racked up around 100 appearances for arsenal. A team that is one of the elite of Europe. You would find it hard to find another attacking player with credentials such as his who was on significantly less than his reported salary. In addition, the secret footballer mentions that when Bendtner was at Birmingham, people including himself (tsf) were comparing him to Zlatan Ibrahimovic.

Next, even if we are to admit that Bendtner on a 60k contract is a massive mistake, its nothing too unusual. Every manager and club makes these kind of mistakes. Adebayor on 100k here surely could be argued as one. Torres on 250k at Chelsea could be another one. Rooney on 300k could prove to be one. The list is be endless. Football is not an exact science, and so clubs must account for these types of errors. If anything, Wenger is very very good at making these types of decisions.

And finally, I don’t believe any realistic savings made in this area would have had arsenal in any significantly better position. As I have mentioned before, its pretty obvious an exponential increase in spend is needed by arsenal to really propel them. They need to be able to spend 100’s of millions every couple of years and be able to have write offs like Torres. Giving the likes of Bendtner 40k instead of 60k wouldn’t change much.



they outspend us to the tune of 50m every season on player wages and are much closer to those above them in that respect than we are to them, yet who have they been finishing closest to over this time period? simply put he has wasted a vast amount of money over the past 6 or 7 years.

Again that makes perfect sense, because the higher you want to go in the league, the exponentially higher the costs become. Arsenal are financially miles off being able to compete will Sheik Mansour’s Emirates Marketing Project and Abramovic’s Chelsea.



so it's clear to me that Wenger has mishandled the money available to him (35m a year more than us on wages and transfers combined)

you are entitled to that opinion. But others would no doubt disagree. Including the directors and board of arsenal who are well-versed in the finances of arsenal and also run successful businesses worth billions of pounds.

Arsenal are one of the only clubs to be financially profitable year in year out. If they have been mishandled financially, I don’t know what that says about the rest of the league.

And you mention that arsenal/wenger spend more in wages than they do in transfer fees (relative to other clubs). For me this shows the genius of the man. He has realised that to keep top players, you need to give them top money. Arsenal cannot spend top money both in transfer fees and in wages, and therefore he has decided to grow youngsters (purchased for nominal fees in many cases) and so cut out large transfer fees. Paying top players top wages is compulsory as players go into a strop and demand to leave if you don’t pay them this.

By doing this he has managed to maintain a top top team that is in the elite of Europe whilst spending less than his counterparts overall.
 
I don't think an Arsenal supporting Wenger Fanboy could have replied any better ;)

you don't seem to have actually taken anything on board that i have posted. Arsenals finances are closer to the top 3 than they are to those 5th and below, so they should have been finishing closer to the top of the league than 5th these past 5/6/7 season - which they have not been doing or ever looked like doing in this period.

they have spent circa 250 million more on their squad than we have over the past 5 seasons - feel free to have a look what the average difference has been between the two clubs over that time period btw - it's one place and barely a handful of points - do you think that is a good return on the extra money spent?

Wenger came in to the league when it was in a poor position - stole a march on his rivals with things like dieting and scouting and so on and got Arsenal in to a great position - once the rest of the league caught up behind the scenes he has effectively been found out as a tactically naive stubborn old fool.
 
I don't think an Arsenal supporting Wenger Fanboy could have replied any better ;)

I’ll admit, if I am totally honest I genuinely do admire what wenger has done. Much in the same way I admire what levy has done for us. But believe it or not, I am lilywhite through and through.

you don't seem to have actually taken anything on board that i have posted. Arsenals finances are closer to the top 3 than they are to those 5th and below, so they should have been finishing closer to the top of the league than 5th these past 5/6/7 season - which they have not been doing or ever looked like doing in this period.

Where have you seen that Arsenal's net spend is closer to city, chelsea and utd, than it is to us and liverpool?

they have spent circa 250 million more on their squad than we have over the past 5 seasons - feel free to have a look what the average difference has been between the two clubs over that time period btw - it's one place and barely a handful of points - do you think that is a good return on the extra money spent?

If your numbers are correct, that’s roughly 50m per season. And that has got them into the champions league every year. Basically recouping all that money, plus any indirect financial gains that can be gained through being one of the elite European clubs (ie. through sponsorships). You only get a few more points per extra £100m you spend in the league when you're a top 5 or so club in the epl. So it makes perfect sense that they have been just edging us and liverpool in the past few seasons.

Wenger came in to the league when it was in a poor position - stole a march on his rivals with things like dieting and scouting and so on and got Arsenal in to a great position - once the rest of the league caught up behind the scenes he has effectively been found out as a tactically naive stubborn old fool.

“Once the rest of the league caught up”? do you mean once Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea caught up? Please name the other clubs that have caught arsenal up
 
can't find the more up to date finances atm so you'll have to do with this. though i do believe the past coule of seasons has seen a return to a gap of around 50m (with our one CL accounting for the rise to 91m you'll see below)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...pending-from-the-200001-season-to-201112.html


wages : 07/08 08/09 09/10 10/11


United : 121m - 123m - 132m - 152m
Arsenal : 101m - 104m - 110m - 124m


Spurs : 50m - 62m - 67m - 91m


if i was paying my squad that much more than the team below me then id be expecting to see a better return than scraping past them every season on the last day.
 
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