The final straw?

[jts1882]

Even if you believe in the stick, its not a very effective one. The player doesn't know why he is being booed and it probably won't motivate him to try harder. Yesterday, Defoe came off to boos and adebayor went on two boos. I doubt it made either feel good, even if they realised they weren't the target. And how did it make the other players feel. The crowd as the 12th man is one of the reasons for home advantage, it seems strange to throw the advantage away.

I was listening to an economist explaining how getting someone to work though incentives are far less effective than making someone want to do the work. If we want the players to "play for the shirt" we need to give them a reason. The players are more likely to play harder if the crowd is behind them, while if it isn't will they give a toss.

 

[jimmyb]

hardly a spoilt brat im actually very selfless in a lot of ways jimmy, what it comes down to is an opinon on how best to motivate people i belive in the stick you belive in the carrot, i have always liked and admired your posts and will continue to do so, but on this i strongly disagree with you.

I respect your rght to your opinon and love that we still live in a country where we can express our opinon.

I believe in properly targeted motivation, chich.

Each of us is an individual. We are motivated by different things in different ways. And since you know nothing of how Clint Dempsey or any of the rest of our players tick, it isn't sensible for you take it upon yourself to attempt to motivate them in a way that might, perhaps, work for you.

Besides, stick and carrot aren't directly analogous to what fans do at a football stadium. Stick and carrott is the responsibility of the coaching staff at Spurs. What we're talking about when we're talking about stadium atmosphere isn't stick and carrott. It's working environment. And there are very, very, very few individuals who respond well in or choose to work in poisonous working environments. THAT"S the analogy. Not stick and carrott.

 

[BAE]

I'm one of the dinosaurs who would still love to see Martin Jol back at the helm. Okay we werent title challengers and he had his faults, but he certainly brought a feel-good factor to the Lane

This is pretty premature but IF it doesn't work out with AVB, I'd like to see Martin Jol brought back for this reason. He doesn't seem to be doing a bad job with Fulham either

 

[DHSF]

Even if you believe in the stick, its not a very effective one. The player doesn't know why he is being booed and it probably won't motivate him to try harder. Yesterday, Defoe came off to boos and adebayor went on two boos. I doubt it made either feel good, even if they realised they weren't the target. And how did it make the other players feel. The crowd as the 12th man is one of the reasons for home advantage, it seems strange to throw the advantage away.

I was listening to an economist explaining how getting someone to work though incentives are far less effective than making someone want to do the work. If we want the players to "play for the shirt" we need to give them a reason. The players are more likely to play harder if the crowd is behind them, while if it isn't will they give a toss.

JTS its give and take. the players have to give fans a reason to be motivated enough to sing and we also help. At the moment people on here want a one way street where fans give everything and players dont even get given a mention. Its extremely difficult to support players when they are obviously either not giving it their all or theyre not showing much in terms of wanting to play.

Using the work analogy its also a two way street there. I give it my all at work in return to be compensated appropriately. My employer wants me to give it my all? then they got to pay me commensurately and appropriately.

 

[milo]

JTS its give and take. the players have to give fans a reason to be motivated enough to sing and we also help. At the moment people on here want a one way street where fans give everything and players dont even get given a mention. Its extremely difficult to support players when they are obviously either not giving it their all or theyre not showing much in terms of wanting to play.

Using the work analogy its also a two way street there. I give it my all at work in return to be compensated appropriately. My employer wants me to give it my all? then they got to pay me commensurately and appropriately.

Disagree. The supporters should get behind the team regardless. A good atmosphere should help drive the team on. A poisonous one will make the players play within themselves and avoid taking risks. What is happening at the moment is a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[DHSF]

Disagree. The supporters should get behind the team regardless. A good atmosphere should help drive the team on. A poisonous one will make the players play within themselves and avoid taking risks. What is happening at the moment is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Thats where we disagree. I do genuinely believe there has to be an element of give and take. Its a partnership.

I am not condoning booing and im not suggesting booing even if the player is playing like brick - thats the Managers decision and call.

 

[T-C]

hardly a spoilt brat im actually very selfless in a lot of ways jimmy, what it comes down to is an opinon on how best to motivate people

As someone else has pointed out, in this situation you don't have the power of carrot or stick, that's for the club managment.

Whatever your personal experience of motivating people, it's simply irrelevant in the context of top level sports psychology. When you 'boo' it's impossible to have an impact on a single player, it's the whole team that feels it.

More than that you'll probably have an effect on the fans around you, bringing their energy down and contributing to the general level of miserableness. It's exactly this attitude which is making WHL a horrible place to come on a Saturday afternoon these days.

The fans getting behind a poorly performing team is far more likely to get them playing with confidence. Booing, making the stadium a place where the players don't want to be, or making them over-think things is certainly not the way to go.

 

[jimmyb]

JTS its give and take. the players have to give fans a reason to be motivated enough to sing and we also help. At the moment people on here want a one way street where fans give everything and players dont even get given a mention. Its extremely difficult to support players when they are obviously either not giving it their all or theyre not showing much in terms of wanting to play.

Using the work analogy its also a two way street there. I give it my all at work in return to be compensated appropriately. My employer wants me to give it my all? then they got to pay me commensurately and appropriately.

Sorry, but are you suggesting that the players aren't trying? More than that, are you suggesting that the players aren't trying at all?

I would suggest that neither is true.

The players might not be playing well (even if we are still in or around the top four) but we have no good reason to believe that they are not trying their utmost. We certainly have no justification for thinking that they are not trying at all.

By contrast, I would say that we have plenty of evidence to suggest that the vast majority of fans are not trying their utmost to support and encourage the players' efforts. We could even say that many fans aren't trying at all. Worse than that, even. Many fans actively attempt to sabotage the players' efforts by creating a pervasively poisonous atmosphere around the stadium.

So whither your two way street?

 

[Essex Yid]

Rather than all of us sitting here moaning about the atmosphere, isn't there something we can do collectively as a board to get something done about it? Could we not start an online campaign about bringing singing back to the Lane, something like that?

Anything is better than nothing, could be worth a go.

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

Not only do i think it is right to boo i think there should be more of it.

Im convinced that some on here think that not booing makes them see more cultured and some sort of "better fan" but my reason for booing is because of my personality.
Someone who to achieve the things he wanted had to change themselves and get out of their comfort zone and push myself and work harder then i had ever done before. I expect the same from the players.

If dempsey starts on thursday i shall boo him from first minute to last this is because i find his performance utterly unacceptable and he needs to know that the fans think this and he has to improve massively.

I guess it comes down to whether your some sort of touchly feely left wing socialist freak who wants to teach the world to dance, or whether your a go getter who likes and demands success. Booing is not only a good thing in my eyes it can be a force for good and it shows the players that we expect more.

Some say the best way to get more from people is to encourage them, in my experince the ones you have to put an arm round and speak to in a soft voice they may give a little extra for a few weeks but they soon revert to type and hide in the shadows. Not a huge fan of parkers but he would not have hide yesterday like so many of our other players did.

Seem to remember parker saying in an interview a few years ago that coaches these days have a hard job because players are so precious that coaches can not shout at them. I bet parker would not minded being shouted at if he was having a bad game.

I remain unconvinced on avb but he will get to the end of the season before i form an opinon on him. He is the coach and if he wants to read the riot act go for it. It is why i will boo dempsey on thursday because it is not acceptable how he is performing, if he improves his form i will take the praise from all of you for helping to improve him. I demand better from the players and all of you should to.

you're right, not booing would make someone a better fan than someone that does during a game. well, a better supporter at least.

i'm going with the assumption that Spurs fans at the game want the team to do well though. that said, i'm not sure it's a given these days - i think there's a lot of self-interest in being proved 'right'.

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

Not only do i think it is right to boo i think there should be more of it.

Im convinced that some on here think that not booing makes them see more cultured and some sort of "better fan" but my reason for booing is because of my personality.
Someone who to achieve the things he wanted had to change themselves and get out of their comfort zone and push myself and work harder then i had ever done before. I expect the same from the players.

If dempsey starts on thursday i shall boo him from first minute to last this is because i find his performance utterly unacceptable and he needs to know that the fans think this and he has to improve massively.

I guess it comes down to whether your some sort of touchly feely left wing socialist freak who wants to teach the world to dance, or whether your a go getter who likes and demands success. Booing is not only a good thing in my eyes it can be a force for good and it shows the players that we expect more.

Some say the best way to get more from people is to encourage them, in my experince the ones you have to put an arm round and speak to in a soft voice they may give a little extra for a few weeks but they soon revert to type and hide in the shadows. Not a huge fan of parkers but he would not have hide yesterday like so many of our other players did.

Seem to remember parker saying in an interview a few years ago that coaches these days have a hard job because players are so precious that coaches can not shout at them. I bet parker would not minded being shouted at if he was having a bad game.

I remain unconvinced on avb but he will get to the end of the season before i form an opinon on him. He is the coach and if he wants to read the riot act go for it. It is why i will boo dempsey on thursday because it is not acceptable how he is performing, if he improves his form i will take the praise from all of you for helping to improve him. I demand better from the players and all of you should to.

you really think that Dempsey will go "f*** me, it's me they're booing! i thought i was doing really well. in that case, i must buck up my ideas pronto."

 

[monkeybarry]

The year we got relegated the fans cheered the team after the last game of the season. We live in a hyper-critical culture where loyalties we used to take for granted no longer apply. If fans feel that players don't give a toss about the club then they clearly feel it's an appropriate response to boo. Even when booing obviously does not motivate the players. BAE tweeted today about booing. Obviously given the ridiculous amount of money it costs to go to a game some fans feel they can express their dissatisfaction at what's unfolding on the hallowed turf. It's a damn shame.

i hate the booing and i hate the over expectation culture (not a new thing at spurs - our fans have always had over inflated ego's since iver know them (call it mid 90s onwards))

but its a double edged sword - the club havnt helped.

i stopped being a memeber 5 years ago when the tiered system came in. how can a "club member" be a better member just because they pay more? its pathetic and devisive.

at that point i decided that club does not care about me as a fan as i should, maybe even an element of contempt in there also.

whilst i hate the booing et al - it is not one way traffic and just a sad fact of the modern game.
a game which has destroyed football as a "fans sport" and ensured it is a "spectator cash vehicle"

 

[CoolburyClub]

For me the club has brought this on itself. They treat fans like dirt, overcharge them and mug them off at every opportunity. All through the transition to tedium stressing the point that football was becoming the place for a "better breed" of fan.

Well we all know that was a load of old tosh. People go expecting to be entertained and when it doesn't happen they either sit in silence or boo the team.

But you can't have it both ways, either its a football club with everyone in it together, or it's a business and if you serve up a poor "product" face the wrath of "outraged from Tunbridge Wells". (Apologies to all Spurs from the manor, I have absolutely no idea where it is).

I've reached the point where I love the club but have no affinity for the fans who pay to watch the game. I don't know what they are or what they're doing there because football just isn't a game that's supposed to be watched in more stiffening silence than an opera.

It's not just the new breed alone but it has gradually made more vocal Spurs support jaded and throughout the 00's the atmosphere declined but whereas the buzz came back for the big games first the West Ham game went stale (why wouldn't it? Most JCL's probably wouldn't be able to find the ground on a London map) then in the last few seasons even the Chelsea, Arsenal and United games have followed suit.

Yeah alot of older heads have that jaded look about them but then creating an atmosphere is something that comes with alot of young people going to a game and pricing out loyal supporters as well as actively alienating them has done nothing but see a deteriation in atmosphere and general match day buzz.

Remember in the 80's when Thatcher asked "Why can't the game be played behind closed doors?" and every football fan laughed at how silly the old mare was for being so clueless about football.

Ask that question now in November 2012 you'd get a different reaction. One of resignation and a lingering suspicion that the batty old trollop might just have a point.

In fact I'd have to say that it wouldn't make that much difference at all. It might even be an improvement with recorded crowd noises from the annals of history past pumped through the speakers at opportune moments.

They'll probably have computer generated holograms for supporters by the time we reach the new ground anyway. Perhaps we'll have a better atmosphere by then.

Football without atmosphere is pointless can and will only go one way. But they'll probably have a ground packed with holograms before they even contemplate offering a ticket at a reasonable price.

 

[Leeds Spur]

The OP is a legend and echoes my thoughts an feelings 100 percent

 

[Leeds Spur]

It's a metaphor for society as a whole. Always playing the blame game, massive sense of entitlement and demanding instant gratification. People really are qunts.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not only do i think it is right to boo i think there should be more of it.

Im convinced that some on here think that not booing makes them see more cultured and some sort of "better fan" but my reason for booing is because of my personality.
Someone who to achieve the things he wanted had to change themselves and get out of their comfort zone and push myself and work harder then i had ever done before. I expect the same from the players.

If dempsey starts on thursday i shall boo him from first minute to last this is because i find his performance utterly unacceptable and he needs to know that the fans think this and he has to improve massively.

I guess it comes down to whether your some sort of touchly feely left wing socialist freak who wants to teach the world to dance, or whether your a go getter who likes and demands success. Booing is not only a good thing in my eyes it can be a force for good and it shows the players that we expect more.

Some say the best way to get more from people is to encourage them, in my experince the ones you have to put an arm round and speak to in a soft voice they may give a little extra for a few weeks but they soon revert to type and hide in the shadows. Not a huge fan of parkers but he would not have hide yesterday like so many of our other players did.

Seem to remember parker saying in an interview a few years ago that coaches these days have a hard job because players are so precious that coaches can not shout at them. I bet parker would not minded being shouted at if he was having a bad game.

I remain unconvinced on avb but he will get to the end of the season before i form an opinon on him. He is the coach and if he wants to read the riot act go for it. It is why i will boo dempsey on thursday because it is not acceptable how he is performing, if he improves his form i will take the praise from all of you for helping to improve him. I demand better from the players and all of you should to.

Maybe whipping people might work? What do you think? While you are working, someone could mentally and physically abuse You! Yeah! That will really make you work well! I am guessing that you have never been responsible for getting people to work effectively.

I can picture it now - your running a Japanese landscape gardening company - your team are planting little Japanese plants in somones garden and you're leaning against a fence watching on, looking for any little fudge ups, and then BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Would that make your team work better?

 

[Brighton Daz]

I think people who boo this team are pathetic. Post-Champions League fans the majority of them. We were utter pony over in Slovenia, but (bar the 50-60 people who left at HT to get back on the Lasko's at 2 euros a go) everyone still clapped the team off. I personally think people who boo the team off at HT should have either/or been shot at birth, or supported Arsenal.

May '98 - Wimbledon away, needed to get something to go into last day of season with a chance of staying up. We win 6-2. That wasn't even 15 years ago. 50 year olds who boo, should either have knocked it on the head - or stayed in the pub and watched it on a jekyll Arabic channel.

 

[Leeds Spur]

I think people who boo this team are pathetic. Post-Champions League fans the majority of them. We were utter pony over in Slovenia, but (bar the 50-60 people who left at HT to get back on the Lasko's at 2 euros a go) everyone still clapped the team off. I personally think people who boo the team off at HT should have either/or been shot at birth, or supported Arsenal.

May '98 - Wimbledon away, needed to get something to go into last day of season with a chance of staying up. We win 6-2. That wasn't even 15 years ago. 50 year olds who boo, should either have knocked it on the head - or stayed in the pub and watched it on a jekyll Arabic channel.

Take a bow son!!!

 

[indianspur]

Saturday was the 7th home game in succession this season where we have failed to score a goal in the first half, and in the majority of those 7 games we have played dreadful football lacking any drive and inspiration.

to be honest, im not surprised some of the fans boo. Its never the whole stadium, just certain sections/parts. I think the players understand the frustration so i wouldnt worry too much about them being upset by the booing.

In general, the atmosphere at football grounds is poor all over the country. Its a shame we cant replicate atmospheres at Bundesliga grounds

 

[DHSF]

I see supporting Spurs as a marriage - no matter how brick we are I will always love spurs. However like in a marriage if the other person tinkles you off you may argue and tell them what tinkled you off. Does your anger or frustration mean that you love her any less? nope. Same with Spurs the supporters booing dont love spurs any less but unlike a marriage to a woman, you cant really communicate your displeasure and im supposing a fans idea of communicating that tinkled off feeling is through booing. What other means of communication is there? is there a forum for example?

I dont agree with booing and find it macaronic and tragic and actually pretty fudgein embarrassing but I do kinda understand it.

indian you mention German football and I was watching it a couple of weeks ago and you get the players and fans having some banter theyre all very close - hell I ws watching a game where at the end the team sat in front of their kop with the fans etc. I think the same goes in Italy where fans and players are close they kinda communicate. i am pretty sure in those instances you get fans and players talking etc. Here in UK the players and fans are very far apart there isnt any of that camaraderie or that tie. maybe im digressing from the real point but just trying to play devils advocate for a few moments.