The Case for the Attacking play

[Raziel]

Full video with analysis that highlights some of the stuff I clipped out

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[Bishop]

Kane makes any side infinitely better but the core of our problem isn't the players (yes, better players help), it's the tactics. The core of Frank's tactics are crosses, spamming lots and lots of crosses into a box that we don't overload, it simply isn't good. I'm going to borrow from an analysis that I link at the end, that shows this in almost an undeniable way.

Through balls in PL this season (the entirety of season), this has been linked/referenced many times and the conclusion most people come up with is we need a progressive 6, our squad is brick, our players can't pass, so for reference, see below

View attachment 21495

Here's the number of crosses we attempted in same period

View attachment 21496

This isn't about player ability, this is instructions/tactics, and the analysis shows it even worse. In the below our wide player gets the ball, look how open Xavi is in the middle but we spam the ball into the box anyway where we don't have a numerical advantage or free man

View attachment 21497

Same again below, Romero wide open in middle, at top of box (area Frank doesn't use), Spence spams cross into box where there are 4 defenders to our 2 attackers

View attachment 21498

And that's by instruction as the cross heatmap shows, and that is when players have gotten wide open, it doesn't even cover the fact Frank's system has some core flaws with zone 14, lack of pulling the opposition out of shape, lack of having a passing lane always open.

View attachment 21499

Contrast the image above, against Burnley, Spence has ball, there is Xavi or back to play to, when Xavi gets the ball, there is literally no attacking pass, no one on the edge of the box, no overloads or even isolations to play to. Now the image below (last year, and no this isn't about Ange), the exact same amount of players committed to attack but spread, isolating their defenders and offering at least 5 open passes and Bentancur choses a 6th option (dink over the top)

View attachment 21500

To me, these are core tactical flaws, coaching issues and a belief in a data/percentage game brick that is not only poor to watch but not effective at the top level.

I hear what you’re saying about the tactical approach, vis-à-vis going wide rather than centrally. We could certainly use more variety, but it’s kind of obvious why we do this. Still, are you seriously saying that you watch this group of players and actually think they’re capable of playing the passes you’re suggesting???

Have you never noticed the lack of vision that leads to very basic passes into feet 99% of the time? Or the poor weighting of passes, often hit too forcefully or too slowly, and rarely into a player’s running stride? Even when the pass is received, you constantly see the player have to take an initial touch just to get the ball out of their feet before they can even attempt the second action.

Are you genuinely saying that you’ve watched the likes of Gray, Palhinha, Biss, Sarr, Bentancur, Bergvall, and now Gallagher, and thought they were bright, inventive and creative passers of the ball?

This isn’t a new phenomenon under Frank. It’s not primarily down to coaching, it relates to the fundamental abilities and skill sets of the players we have. Coaching can only sharpen the tools you already possess; it cannot manifest abilities that were never there in the first place. The same limitations existed under Ange, and they existed under Conte, even with a different set of players, because we always recruit from the same mould: functional workers whose standout attribute is never passing ability. Occasionally we’ve targeted movers with the ball, like Bergvall, and hybrids like Sarr and Bissouma, but where is the actual passing specialist?

Even in the examples you gave, who the fudge was supposed to play the ball to the player in the positions you pointed out? Do you seriously think that if these very same players just start spamming through balls, it will somehow just work? We see it even now when we attempt passes into space on the wings, they usually have the wrong weight or lack accuracy. We are not capable of playing those passes to any high degree. Period.

So we don’t want a creative 6, because he would become the be-all and end-all of progression in this team, but we do need a deeper 6 to improve the flow of the passing, increase the speed of circulation, and improve the quality of pass selection. In the examples you gave, the attack is already lost and the box is already congested. To play through those tiny gaps, you need truly gifted passers, not just very good ones, but gifted ones and we are a million miles away from that.

To achieve what you actually want, the quality of the passing before we get to those areas needs to be better. That's why we need a creative 6 or a passing 8. That’s what will create space. That’s what creates options. That’s what creates overloads. That’s what creates gaps that even a good passer has a more realistic chance of hitting accurately, rather than the Xavi Hernández, esque passing lanes you’re expecting right now.

None of this is to excuse Frank, but you need a bit of a reality check if you can’t see both the strengths our midfielders do possess and, conversely, the weaknesses that are painfully obvious

 

[braineclipse]

I hear what you’re saying about the tactical approach, vis-à-vis going wide rather than centrally. We could certainly use more variety, but it’s kind of obvious why we do this. Still, are you seriously saying that you watch this group of players and actually think they’re capable of playing the passes you’re suggesting???

Have you never noticed the lack of vision that leads to very basic passes into feet 99% of the time? Or the poor weighting of passes, often hit too forcefully or too slowly, and rarely into a player’s running stride? Even when the pass is received, you constantly see the player have to take an initial touch just to get the ball out of their feet before they can even attempt the second action.

Are you genuinely saying that you’ve watched the likes of Gray, Palhinha, Biss, Sarr, Bentancur, Bergvall, and now Gallagher, and thought they were bright, inventive and creative passers of the ball?

This isn’t a new phenomenon under Frank. It’s not primarily down to coaching, it relates to the fundamental abilities and skill sets of the players we have. Coaching can only sharpen the tools you already possess; it cannot manifest abilities that were never there in the first place. The same limitations existed under Ange, and they existed under Conte, even with a different set of players, because we always recruit from the same mould: functional workers whose standout attribute is never passing ability. Occasionally we’ve targeted movers with the ball, like Bergvall, and hybrids like Sarr and Bissouma, but where is the actual passing specialist?

Even in the examples you gave, who the fudge was supposed to play the ball to the player in the positions you pointed out? Do you seriously think that if these very same players just start spamming through balls, it will somehow just work? We see it even now when we attempt passes into space on the wings, they usually have the wrong weight or lack accuracy. We are not capable of playing those passes to any high degree. Period.

So we don’t want a creative 6, because he would become the be-all and end-all of progression in this team, but we do need a deeper 6 to improve the flow of the passing, increase the speed of circulation, and improve the quality of pass selection. In the examples you gave, the attack is already lost and the box is already congested. To play through those tiny gaps, you need truly gifted passers, not just very good ones, but gifted ones and we are a million miles away from that.

To achieve what you actually want, the quality of the passing before we get to those areas needs to be better. That's why we need a creative 6 or a passing 8. That’s what will create space. That’s what creates options. That’s what creates overloads. That’s what creates gaps that even a good passer has a more realistic chance of hitting accurately, rather than the Xavi Hernández, esque passing lanes you’re expecting right now.

None of this is to excuse Frank, but you need a bit of a reality check if you can’t see both the strengths our midfielders do possess and, conversely, the weaknesses that are painfully obvious

We definitely agree on a quality passer in midfield being something we lack and have lacked for quite a while.

Bergvall isn't an elite passer, but he's well capable of progressing the ball though the middle (with risk), we've seen Bentancur's progressive passing stats essentially halved from last season. Gray isn't an elite passer either and while he has been playing a lot more recently for a while it was Palhinha, Bentancur or Sarr every week who are all worse at those things than Gray.

And while Gray isn't an elite passer he's really good in tight spaces and under pressure, someone who again (with risk) can progress the ball if given the ball in those areas. We mostly don't even when he's on the pitch.

On transfers surely the manager has some say and influence over who we buy. Based on both his record here so far and what he's said I think Paratici does care about getting the manager what he wants. So having these obvious shortcomings in midfield, particularly deep, we sign first Palhinha and then Gallagher. I think that illustrates Frank's priorities and how he wants us to play for now at the very least.

 

[Raziel]

I hear what you’re saying about the tactical approach, vis-à-vis going wide rather than centrally. We could certainly use more variety, but it’s kind of obvious why we do this. Still, are you seriously saying that you watch this group of players and actually think they’re capable of playing the passes you’re suggesting???

I think they are capable of more than 14 passes in 23 games

Have you never noticed the lack of vision that leads to very basic passes into feet 99% of the time? Or the poor weighting of passes, often hit too forcefully or too slowly, and rarely into a player’s running stride? Even when the pass is received, you constantly see the player have to take an initial touch just to get the ball out of their feet before they can even attempt the second action.

This is coaching, a big part of passing at this level is knowing where the other players is supposed to be, and drilling that in. I 100% agree too often I see our players stop, take a touch, look for the next pass, then under/over cook it, that is coaching, look at pre Frank how many rondos you would see in the training videos and pre match vs. now

Are you genuinely saying that you’ve watched the likes of Gray, Palhinha, Biss, Sarr, Bentancur, Bergvall, and now Gallagher, and thought they were bright, inventive and creative passers of the ball?

I think they are professional football players at the upper end of the PL, I think they can complete basic passes, go really look at a highlight reel of Bentancur and Gallagher and tell me they can't pass.

This isn’t a new phenomenon under Frank. It’s not primarily down to coaching, it relates to the fundamental abilities and skill sets of the players we have. Coaching can only sharpen the tools you already possess; it cannot manifest abilities that were never there in the first place. The same limitations existed under Ange, and they existed under Conte, even with a different set of players, because we always recruit from the same mould: functional workers whose standout attribute is never passing ability. Occasionally we’ve targeted movers with the ball, like Bergvall, and hybrids like Sarr and Bissouma, but where is the actual passing specialist?

Even in the examples you gave, who the fudge was supposed to play the ball to the player in the positions you pointed out? Do you seriously think that if these very same players just start spamming through balls, it will somehow just work? We see it even now when we attempt passes into space on the wings, they usually have the wrong weight or lack accuracy. We are not capable of playing those passes to any high degree. Period.

Mate, you are so stuck on this blame it on the squad. The examples I've shown are clear with two things, 1/When the pass is there/open, the players are clearly instructed to push it out wide to someone to spam the ball into the box, and yes in the examples I showed, Xavi and Odobert can make the pass. 2/The movement in front of the pass is a problem, and the example shows, an attacking move, pretty much sae team last year, much better availability in front the pass.

A perfect example of this is Porro, he can pass, he is capable of varying his game, short/long pass, carry, shoot, he has literally be reduced to a cross spammer and fans just want to go "look at this fool passing the ball to no one" it's instruction. Again, a team with Romero, Porro, Xavi, Tel, Odobert (even if you 100% think the midfield can't pass at a school boy level) can make more than 1 pass a game,

So we don’t want a creative 6, because he would become the be-all and end-all of progression in this team, but we do need a deeper 6 to improve the flow of the passing, increase the speed of circulation, and improve the quality of pass selection. In the examples you gave, the attack is already lost and the box is already congested. To play through those tiny gaps, you need truly gifted passers, not just very good ones, but gifted ones and we are a million miles away from that.

To achieve what you actually want, the quality of the passing before we get to those areas needs to be better. That's why we need a creative 6 or a passing 8. That’s what will create space. That’s what creates options. That’s what creates overloads. That’s what creates gaps that even a good passer has a more realistic chance of hitting accurately, rather than the Xavi Hernández, esque passing lanes you’re expecting right now.

We aren't going to get that 6, because that isn't what frank wants

None of this is to excuse Frank, but you need a bit of a reality check if you can’t see both the strengths our midfielders do possess and, conversely, the weaknesses that are painfully obvious

You are mate, you literally watched data that said
- We have tried 14 forward/progressive passes in 23 games, while trying literally 100s of crosses
- Even when that pass is an easy/open one, we choose to go the low percentage cross spam
- When we spam the crosses, we aren't putting players in the box to improve the chances
- We don't have the players to play this style, vs. your ask for progressive passers, maybe we need to fill the fudging midfield with people who are elite in the air. This is proven out by the fact that after Richi, our top scorers are Romero/VDV/Palhinha (all people who part of their game is headers)

And this is where you and I will seemingly always disagree

- Your perspective seems to be, Pep/Ancelotti/Emry/no manager will improve this team and they are all brick, so Frank gets a pass.
- I think Frank is actively making the team worse, the opposition (as they do in the PL) have figured out the absolute predictability of his game plan (as they did with his predecessor) and even watching his brick every week, I could easily see how this season we could have been 6-9 points better off without having to beat any of the big teams (we have a better squad than the 5 teams we failed to beat in January). And our willingness to accept that bottom half results is hurting the club both long and short term. And after 30+ games, he's not going to change, and we aren't going to improve and for someone like you (who thinks it's about technical ability), we aren't going to buy that profile (Robertson for example is another player that would just be used like a left sides Porro, fudging cross spammer, if we did that, are you going to say he can't pass either?), we are going to buy workers in midfield and cross spammers wide.

 

[Bishop]

I think they are capable of more than 14 passes in 23 games

This is coaching, a big part of passing at this level is knowing where the other players is supposed to be, and drilling that in. I 100% agree too often I see our players stop, take a touch, look for the next pass, then under/over cook it, that is coaching, look at pre Frank how many rondos you would see in the training videos and pre match vs. now

Rondos yes, were they successful no they bloody weren't. It doesn't matter how much you drill them, if they lack the basic minerals no amount of drilling is going to change that. Ange played the heavy possession short passing game with overloads, yet how often did we see these threaded passes played? It was Maddison and Kulu who attempted them, pretty much no one else successfully because no one else had the capability. So if Ange the madman who obsessively drilled this play style training session after training session can't it out of them well maybe...its just not there to be had.

A big part of my gradual change of heart with Ange was because of his unwillingness to accept the limitations of the squad. His unwillingness to add a 6 and an 8. Go back and look at my posts I literally said the same things about this squad last year, it's not a coaching problem. We literally do not have the players and even when coached by someone obsessed with that play style it still didn't work.

I think they are professional football players at the upper end of the PL, I think they can complete basic passes, go really look at a highlight reel of Bentancur and Gallagher and tell me they can't pass.

I have. I think clearly we have different standards and expectations. They are meat and potatoes passers. Nothing special at all, I can't think of anyone but a Tottenham fan who would call either great passers and I wonder if you watch enough football outside of Spurs and historically if you do indeed consider either great passers of the ball? Now maybe you don't want great users of the ball but I bloody do. We ain't getting anywhere with just meat and potatoes. I've seen probably at least a dozen better passers in midfield just at Spurs than these guys we have right now.

Mate, you are so stuck on this blame it on the squad. The examples I've shown are clear with two things, 1/When the pass is there/open, the players are clearly instructed to push it out wide to someone to spam the ball into the box, and yes in the examples I showed, Xavi and Odobert can make the pass. 2/The movement in front of the pass is a problem, and the example shows, an attacking move, pretty much sae team last year, much better availability in front the pass.

A perfect example of this is Porro, he can pass, he is capable of varying his game, short/long pass, carry, shoot, he has literally be reduced to a cross spammer and fans just want to go "look at this fool passing the ball to no one" it's instruction. Again, a team with Romero, Porro, Xavi, Tel, Odobert (even if you 100% think the midfield can't pass at a school boy level) can make more than 1 pass a game,

I disagree with this contention about Odobert and I'm a fan. I've been one of those who always backed him as having some quality but I have never seen him pull off the type of pass we are talking about. Not under Ange and certainly not under Frank. He might well grow into someone who can do it, as I think he has some good potential but he's never done it.

Porro is a long passer, his short passing is meh. Again I don't know what you're seeing. Why are we even mentioning Tel and passing in the same sentence?

We aren't going to get that 6, because that isn't what frank wants


You are mate, you literally watched data that said
- We have tried 14 forward/progressive passes in 23 games, while trying literally 100s of crosses
- Even when that pass is an easy/open one, we choose to go the low percentage cross spam
- When we spam the crosses, we aren't putting players in the box to improve the chances
- We don't have the players to play this style, vs. your ask for progressive passers, maybe we need to fill the fudging midfield with people who are elite in the air. This is proven out by the fact that after Richi, our top scorers are Romero/VDV/Palhinha (all people who part of their game is headers)

How Frank wants to play is one thing, I agree we probably over play with the width but playing through middle isn't going to work when we don't don't have quality players to occupy that space in the first place. Coaching isn't going to change that as I keep reiterating, it's not a new problem. These passes aren't actually easy for our players hence our difficulty in playing them correctly.

And this is where you and I will seemingly always disagree

- Your perspective seems to be, Pep/Ancelotti/Emry/no manager will improve this team and they are all brick, so Frank gets a pass.
- I think Frank is actively making the team worse, the opposition (as they do in the PL) have figured out the absolute predictability of his game plan (as they did with his predecessor) and even watching his brick every week, I could easily see how this season we could have been 6-9 points better off without having to beat any of the big teams (we have a better squad than the 5 teams we failed to beat in January). And our willingness to accept that bottom half results is hurting the club both long and short term. And after 30+ games, he's not going to change, and we aren't going to improve and for someone like you (who thinks it's about technical ability), we aren't going to buy that profile (Robertson for example is another player that would just be used like a left sides Porro, fudging cross spammer, if we did that, are you going to say he can't pass either?), we are going to buy workers in midfield and cross spammers wide.

He might well be making the team worse, but as I e said to you across numerous threads, if we sack him and don't improve the squad who ever comes will receive a version of the same complaints from you that Conte, Ange and now Frank have. Do you not notice a pattern within yourself about your complaints?

By all means sack Frank but the problems we have run faaaaar deeper than the manager we appointed this season.

I think we are chasing after our tail just sacking manager after manager while buying the same mediocre standard of player and then wondering why season by season our standards and quality are dropping. I don't really care whether Frank or even Ange wants a passing 8, that's what I can see we need and until we get that this team will just stay in the quicksand no matter who we appoint.

 

[Bishop]

We definitely agree on a quality passer in midfield being something we lack and have lacked for quite a while.

Bergvall isn't an elite passer, but he's well capable of progressing the ball though the middle (with risk), we've seen Bentancur's progressive passing stats essentially halved from last season. Gray isn't an elite passer either and while he has been playing a lot more recently for a while it was Palhinha, Bentancur or Sarr every week who are all worse at those things than Gray.

And while Gray isn't an elite passer he's really good in tight spaces and under pressure, someone who again (with risk) can progress the ball if given the ball in those areas. We mostly don't even when he's on the pitch.

On transfers surely the manager has some say and influence over who we buy. Based on both his record here so far and what he's said I think Paratici does care about getting the manager what he wants. So having these obvious shortcomings in midfield, particularly deep, we sign first Palhinha and then Gallagher. I think that illustrates Frank's priorities and how he wants us to play for now at the very least.

Yeah I can definitely see the argument that Frank isn't bringing in the type of player we need. I wonder though because I would say we needed the same under Ange and we didn't get that player then either. We needed it under Conte even more so and again didn't really get it, pre injury Bentancur was approaching it, but still not a specialist passer that he would want and we added Bissouma who he clearly had 0 interest in.

I'm actually not really fussed what Ange or Frank want. They are always somewhat temporary, I think the quality of the squad is more important and if we do have quality players whomever the manager is, they will use them.