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Steven Bergwijn

billyiddo said:
1 goal in 19 as an attacking player is poor, no two ways about it and for all his defensive contribution unless he improves that area of his game it is where he will be ultimately judged.

What's his creative output like?
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Where are you getting 1 goal in 19 from?

Why not look at minutes played, or games started, rather than (I assume) appearances? We're looking at a fairly low sample size, why not include last season?

I agree that he will have to do better if he wants to becaume an automatic starter, or even become/remain a regular starter.

He's started 15 PL games for us, played just under 1400 minutes of PL fotball. He's scored 3 goals and has 1 assist in that time. Still not good enough, but a different picture to 1 goal in 19.

Just as a point of reference, first season here Son started 13 games, played just over 1100 minutes, 4 goals, 1 assist.
 
I got it from whoever first posted it?

You make a fair point regarding goals per game vs goal per minute
 
harr1984 said:
Assists is one of the stats that has great prominence put on it but in reality only tells a small piece of the story. For me it’s more important about an attackers movement that creates space for either himself or others, and the general creativity that the player provides. Bergwijn running with and without the ball is very good, isn’t wasteful in possession and works hard - I think whilst he hasn’t set the world on fire we have a very good player on our hands who is going to get better and better with more experience in this league....
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I agree re assists not always been the most accurate stat in terms of creativity. I was just responding to a comparison to Firmino. I think Liverpool fans overstate his importance. He’s miles behind Salah and Mane in terms of overall output but he does an unglamorous role and he is important to them. My point was that he creates more than Bergwijn. Ultimately there’s no clear first choice at the moment to play alongside Kane and Son so if that means Bergwijn, Alli or Moura get 6-10 games without interruption to fight for the spot amongst themselves then great.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I don’t see how anyone can argue with this. He needs to score and assist more. I like the lad, he does a lot of good work but he needs to produce more as an attacker. He’s young so deserves time and chances to do it but if we’re sitting here next year and his goals/assist ratio is the same, we’d be stupid not to ask serious questions.

He’s lucky at the moment that none of the other attackers are firing because if they were, he’d be benched. Let’s hope he takes advantage because I believe there is a player in there.
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Honestly, I may be completely wrong but I think people are being a bit more protective of him and going out of their way to rally round him after the abuse he got after Liverpool. That is totally understandable but at the same time we still have to have ability to critique aspects of his game just like we do with Lucas Moura or Dele Alli.
 
braineclipse said:
Where are you getting 1 goal in 19 from?

Why not look at minutes played, or games started, rather than (I assume) appearances? We're looking at a fairly low sample size, why not include last season?

I agree that he will have to do better if he wants to becaume an automatic starter, or even become/remain a regular starter.

He's started 15 PL games for us, played just under 1400 minutes of PL fotball. He's scored 3 goals and has 1 assist in that time. Still not good enough, but a different picture to 1 goal in 19.

Just as a point of reference, first season here Son started 13 games, played just over 1100 minutes, 4 goals, 1 assist.
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It’s actually 0 goals in 19 apps but take your point about minutes played. As others have said, no one has really made that spot their own so Bergwijn has a chance to nail it down as his. He’ll need to chip in with more goals and create more chances to do that but he will get plenty of chances to do that hopefully.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I don’t see how anyone can argue with this. He needs to score and assist more. I like the lad, he does a lot of good work but he needs to produce more as an attacker. He’s young so deserves time and chances to do it but if we’re sitting here next year and his goals/assist ratio is the same, we’d be stupid not to ask serious questions.

He’s lucky at the moment that none of the other attackers are firing because if they were, he’d be benched. Let’s hope he takes advantage because I believe there is a player in there.
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Could not agree more with you over that, sadly there are some who will not give him that time to show what he can do. The kid has played in only 25 Prem games and some have decided to judge him on that.
 
parklane1 said:
Could not agree more with you over that, sadly there are some who will not give him that time to show what he can do. The kid has played in only 25 Prem games and some have decided to judge him on that.
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What are people meant to judge a player on if not the games they have played?
 
billyiddo said:
What are people meant to judge a player on if not the games they have played?
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I guess in todays game players get JUDGED on relatively not much more then a handful of games ( and before you say 20 odd games is more then a handful) most players need more then that to settle into a team that changes personal fairly often, and when they come in from a different country its not easy for most of them.
 
billyiddo said:
What are people meant to judge a player on if not the games they have played?
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Without wishing to speak for @parklane1, I think we should allow a lad who is new to the league, new to England, has had injury issues in the middle of a global pandemic a bit of leeway and not judge him the same way, as say, Matt Doherty or Gareth Bale who should be more settled.

The experience of Ndombele, for example, says that lads in that situation deserve a bit of time.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Without wishing to speak for @statlover1, I think we should allow a lad who is new to the league, new to England, has had injury issues in the middle of a global pandemic a bit of leeway and not judge him the same way, as say, Matt Doherty or Gareth Bale who should be more settled.

The experience of Ndombele, for example, says that lads in that situation deserve a bit of time.
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tickle my balls with a feather.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Without wishing to speak for @statlover1, I think we should allow a lad who is new to the league, new to England, has had injury issues in the middle of a global pandemic a bit of leeway and not judge him the same way, as say, Matt Doherty or Gareth Bale who should be more settled.

The experience of Ndombele, for example, says that lads in that situation deserve a bit of time.
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Well of course he's new to the league and not the finished article yadda yadda yadda - all I've seen at worst is people say what he needs to improve going forward. If a player can be praised and said he has shown potential in some areas why can the opposite not be said if they haven't been good in certain areas?

If he's been here long enough to comment on what he's good at he's been here long enough to comment on what he isn't...
 
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Jurgen the German said:
I agree re assists not always been the most accurate stat in terms of creativity. I was just responding to a comparison to Firmino. I think Liverpool fans overstate his importance. He’s miles behind Salad and Mane in terms of overall output but he does an unglamorous role and he is important to them. My point was that he creates more than Bergwijn. Ultimately there’s no clear first choice at the moment to play alongside Kane and Son so if that means Bergwijn, Alli or Moura get 6-10 games without interruption to fight for the spot amongst themselves then great.
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I think Ings would walk into that team above Firmino if he could keep his fitness.
 
Much better from him today, some really nice touches, if he can continue that and make the RWF position an attacking threat rather than just another line of defense it would make all the difference.
 
AdamB said:
Played well. He's night and day ahead of Bale, Moura and Lamela for the 3rd attacking spot
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He might not be as eye catching as a Son type, but he rarely loses the ball and uses it diligently. Whether he receives the ball with his back to goal and is closely marked, or dribbling, or passing he usually keeps possession which is useful and he does a lot of hard running which can benefit both our attacking and defending....
 
harr1984 said:
He might not be as eye catching as a Son type, but he rarely loses the ball and uses it diligently. Whether he receives the ball with his back to goal and is closely marked, or dribbling, or passing he usually keeps possession which is useful and he does a lot of hard running which can benefit both our attacking and defending....
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Agreed, but need to remember that he's just 23 too. No reason why he can't develop into a Son-like player.

We need to sort out our back-ups to Son and Bergwijn though. Would be nice to have at least one who is vaguely capable and fit more often than not
 
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