Son Heung-Min

[Bishop]

Ultimately I think we agree on things but these are the games Son has started as ST and scored in this season. There are a few low-block teams in there. https://thfcdb.com/people/heung-min-son?tab=matches&filterSeasons[0]=883914&startingStatus=startingXi&matchEvents=goal&position=st&selectedView=list

View attachment 17001


The 10 matches he started up front but didn't score in:

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It appears that low block is not a determiner on whether he scores or not...

 

[Jurgen the German]

Honestly we need better wingers. Neither of them can dribble, both only want to take their man on when there is space in behind. Yet our midfield plays short passes that compress the space giving time for the defenders to get into position we then rarely switch the the play over distance or play into space. Add to that these wingers who don't take their man on, and who can't take shots at goal (Johnson on the right) or are just poor finishers (Werner). So our game plan is low percentage low crosses across the box? Meh, that is a very low percentage attack for me.

For this system to work it needs more variety, we need threaded passes beyond the forwards. We need longer distance sharper passes into space on the wings for Wener and Johnson to run on to and yes maybe we need a different type of striker. The striker needs the instinct of course, but they need fantastic tight touch and control and they need to be able to body weave some space to get the shot off. Richie is not the answer either as he lacks in the same areas that we need strengths in.

If we want to play the short passing game then frankly we need forwards with better touch and control then Johnson, and players truly able to dribble and beat a man from standing start not this hit the ball forward and run at pace which is both of Werner and Johnson. We need a deeper midfielder who can switch the ball over distance and ideally hit it between lines when the opportunity presents itself and we need an AM who can consistently find the threaded passes through massed lines. As it is we play to feet constantly in the box but we don't have dribblers so we struggle to break down the tight lines or fashion space for a shot.

Yeah that’s the part that underwhelms me, so the plan is for every goal we score to be a tap in? What if that doesn’t work and we need a plan B? Our wingers don’t have the guile or the trickery as you point out. You need to be able to score in a variety of ways. That’s why I’m still defending Son because whilst he has his faults, he brings more to the table as a forward than anyone else we have.

 

[harr1984]

Honestly we need better wingers. Neither of them can dribble, both only want to take their man on when there is space in behind. Yet our midfield plays short passes that compress the space giving time for the defenders to get into position we then rarely switch the the play over distance or play into space. Add to that these wingers who don't take their man on, and who can't take shots at goal (Johnson on the right) or are just poor finishers (Werner). So our game plan is low percentage low crosses across the box? Meh, that is a very low percentage attack for me.

For this system to work it needs more variety, we need threaded passes beyond the forwards. We need longer distance sharper passes into space on the wings for Wener and Johnson to run on to and yes maybe we need a different type of striker. The striker needs the instinct of course, but they need fantastic tight touch and control and they need to be able to body weave some space to get the shot off. Richie is not the answer either as he lacks in the same areas that we need strengths in.

If we want to play the short passing game then frankly we need forwards with better touch and control then Johnson, and players truly able to dribble and beat a man from standing start not this hit the ball forward and run at pace which is both of Werner and Johnson. We need a deeper midfielder who can switch the ball over distance and ideally hit it between lines when the opportunity presents itself and we need an AM who can consistently find the threaded passes through massed lines. As it is we play to feet constantly in the box but we don't have dribblers so we struggle to break down the tight lines or fashion space for a shot.

I can get on board with your general point, but I will say Werner has shown quite a few times he can beat his man with the ball at his feet dribbling - not just a case of him using his pace to run onto a ball in space.

But the point around Son, I see many saying play him out left but I don't see him as good enough out wide. He doesn't have the electric pace anymore, and doesn't beat a player one on one with skill for the most part. The only time I recall him doing so in recent times was at home to Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I appreciate his finishing quality, but I'm not sure where he belongs here longer term assuming Ange gets in more attacking players he wants...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I can get on board with your general point, but I will say Werner has shown quite a few times he can beat his man with the ball at his feet dribbling - not just a case of him using his pace to run onto a ball in space.

But the point around Son, I see many saying play him out left but I don't see him as good enough out wide. He doesn't have the electric pace anymore, and doesn't beat a player one on one with skill for the most part. The only time I recall him doing so in recent times was at home to Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I appreciate his finishing quality, but I'm not sure where he belongs here longer term assuming Ange gets in more attacking players he wants...

He didn’t start the season that well playing wide
I don’t think he scored until that Burnley game when he came alive

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It appears that low block is not a determiner on whether he scores or not...

Actually it does
You need to look at who he scored against like I did yesterday
It highlights that as an issue
Luton played a kinda low block and son scored the deflected goal
And palace
Everyone else plays a high line and An attacking defence

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Ultimately I think we agree on things but these are the games Son has started as ST and scored in this season. There are a few low-block teams in there. https://thfcdb.com/people/heung-min-son?tab=matches&filterSeasons[0]=883914&startingStatus=startingXi&matchEvents=goal&position=st&selectedView=list

View attachment 17001


The 10 matches he started up front but didn't score in:

View attachment 17002

Saudi Sportswashing Machine played a back 5
Forrest a low block
West hame had their defence behind their keeper they were that deep
Fulham didn’t and tore us apart
Villa did at WHL. We were better that day too

I look at that list and dint see anyone who went at us other than Chelsea. They all countered us and did it well in some cases or tooo the hence when it came and built on it (Fulham and Saudi Sportswashing Machine)

21 goals against too in those games and most were counter attacks or set pieces

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It appears that low block is not a determiner on whether he scores or not...

Have you see who he has scored against vs who he hasn’t?
I’m quite excited to see him start CF now against arsenal as they will give us room
Worryingly we will give them plenty too

 

[Lemonade Money]

I haven't got a problem with him playing up front (I don't think LW is the answer), but why can't he be in the box for tap-ins? He's never there when the wingers fizz a cross in. Is he being told to back off to draw markers away from our marauding full backs?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I haven't got a problem with him playing up front (I don't think LW is the answer), but why can't he be in the box for tap-ins? He's never there when the wingers fizz a cross in. Is he being told to back off to draw markers away from our marauding full backs?

Because he wants the ball and he isn’t a CF
If the opposition mark him he can’t “push back” so he does what any physically weaker player does … he goes away
Richarlison, for all his weakness fights back. He doesn’t vacate the spaces and tries to own them. No coincidence that all his goals have been one touch

 

[Diamond Lights]

last couple of games has shown Son cannot be effective as a striker when other teams figure out a tactic to nullify him.

Running in behind he's an absolute lethal finisher but if the opposition are in a deep block, back 5, he's got no space to run into and for the majority of time, he will rarely score (not never, just rarely). He cannot receive the ball back to goal, he is not that sort of player, and Saudi Sportswashing Machine literally scored on the weekend when he failed to hold the ball up and turned the ball over quickly with that exact failure.

Not his fault, it's not his game. Think it's been a failure on Ange not to find another method when it's clearly not working.

I know he missed January so that makes 2 goals in 2+ months of football. Not ideal.

 

[Sandman]

last couple of games has shown Son cannot be effective as a striker when other teams figure out a tactic to nullify him.

Running in behind he's an absolute lethal finisher but if the opposition are in a deep block, back 5, he's got no space to run into and for the majority of time, he will rarely score (not never, just rarely). He cannot receive the ball back to goal, he is not that sort of player, and Saudi Sportswashing Machine literally scored on the weekend when he failed to hold the ball up and turned the ball over quickly with that exact failure.

Not his fault, it's not his game. Think it's been a failure on Ange not to find another method when it's clearly not working.

I know he missed January so that makes 2 goals in 2+ months of football. Not ideal.

A striker like Richy is surely the answer to this. it was working until he got injured. More presence and better in the air etc. Then son can go left.

our options are very limited right now in terms of style of play up front.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A striker like Richy is surely the answer to this. it was working until he got injured. More presence and better in the air etc. Then son can go left.

our options are very limited right now in terms of style of play up front.

And son has a goal threat on the left with Werner as another pace option who will still scare teams

 

[Jurgen the German]

A striker like Richy is surely the answer to this. it was working until he got injured. More presence and better in the air etc. Then son can go left.

our options are very limited right now in terms of style of play up front.

I think we need better as a starter than Richy. He’s fine as a backup.

 

[jrh]

I think we need better as a starter than Richy. He’s fine as a backup.

Who? Richie was goal a game when fit

 

[Jurgen the German]

Who? Richie was goal a game when fit

Who specifically? I don’t know as I’m not a scout and honestly haven’t watched a lot of football outside the PL the last couple of years. I’ve liked the look of Isak and Osimhen when I’ve watched them off the top of my head. The goals Richy was scoring were largely tap ins. People seem to think we can get away with scoring those kind of goals every time, sometimes you need a bit more than that IMO and you need a better finisher. All very well saying Son doesn’t attack the 6 yard box which may be true, but he also scores goals that no one else in the team can score.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Who specifically? I don’t know as I’m not a scout and honestly haven’t watched a lot of football outside the PL the last couple of years. I’ve liked the look of Isak and Osimhen when I’ve watched them off the top of my head. The goals Richy was scoring were largely tap ins. People seem to think we can get away with scoring those kind of goals every time, sometimes you need a bit more than that IMO and you need a better finisher. All very well saying Son doesn’t attack the 6 yard box which may be true, but he also scores goals that no one else in the team can score.

We can score those goals if someone is there. He literally did it.
The issue is son drifts
I know we have gone round the houses on this but Haaland is a tap in merchant. Would you take him?
The last time a player scored a Sonny goal… was Richy vs everton
I’m not saying Richy is the solution, but he is the answer right now

 

[Jurgen the German]

We can score those goals if someone is there. He literally did it.
The issue is son drifts
I know we have gone round the houses on this but Haaland is a tap in merchant. Would you take him?
The last time a player scored a Sonny goal… was Richy vs everton
I’m not saying Richy is the solution, but he is the answer right now

Haaland scores more than just tap ins, he bullies defenders and scores one on ones, headers, latches on to through balls etc.

 

[jrh]

Haaland scores more than just tap ins, he bullies defenders and scores one on ones, headers, latches on to through balls etc.

Richie is capable of all that, see his goals at Everton, for Brazil and some of his early goals for us under Conte

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Haaland scores more than just tap ins, he bullies defenders and scores one on ones, headers, latches on to through balls etc.

He does
But his first goal is early always a tap in
That’s what then causes the opposition to come out and he then gets other chances
Literally like we did vs Villa
And he bullies defenders. Son tickles them at best. That’s the issue I keep on repeating. You need a CF who teams fear because of how they play. Teams don’t fear Sonny as a CF. They force him to wander. Schar caught him in the last game by following him into our half and kicking him. Son then went even more missing

 

[NickTB]

Hmmmm…..

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