Jurgen the German
Tommy Harmer
You’ve changed the argument. You said he’s not prolific at CF. Now it’s “ he’s not prolific since teams figured out how we play”
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Son Heung-Min
- Thread starter Denmark Spur
- Start date
You’ve changed the argument. You said he’s not prolific at CF. Now it’s “ he’s not prolific since teams figured out how we play”
jrh
Steve Hodge
@Jurgen the German no one is questioning Son's overall quality, or his finishing ability. Just his current form. That's what the discussion is about. If you think he's contributing positively to our overall play at the moment, I don't know what you're seeing.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
No
I’ve said he isn’t good in Ange ball and he ain’t a prolific CF
The games I highlight were to give some context as to why he scored in those games as CF
Those teams attacked us (apart from palace) and left space to attack
In the prem very few teams will do that now and it’s no coincidence that sons CF game has got worse because of it
I don’t believe be played CF in Germany and here he has only played there when Kane wasn’t available. He did really well under Poch in that role TBF but that was with Llorent doing the donkey work.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
He had a 12 game spell as CF previously (before Christmas) and scored 8 goals I think in that spell (sorry I’m going it from memory)
Richy went CF afterwards and scored 10 in 10 I think …
And I say neither are the answer
We need a CF who leads form the front
Occupies CBs
Stays in the box
Gets the tap ins that come their way
Richy went CF afterwards and scored 10 in 10 I think …
And I say neither are the answer
We need a CF who leads form the front
Occupies CBs
Stays in the box
Gets the tap ins that come their way
But this is the crux of the issue. Anges system we need a CF who scores tap ins, the forwards stay wide and put in low crosses for the CF. That's not Sons game. That doesn't mean he's not still a good forward, but he definitely isn't suited as the CF in our system for the most part. I get that he's still scored goals but we should have scored far more with a different type of CF, or just if Richi had remained fit - he was really getting into the groove and his hold up play was improving too.
With the way Ange wants our wide forwards to be positioned I don't even think he's a great option for LW considering his loss of pace, but that's a conversation for another day...
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
It’s that simple ain’t it
A presence in attack that will also be physical to their CBs
Seeing schar run away with the ball from son today was just the opposite
And people complain about tap ins almost as if they don’t count
Son doesn’t really do them. Ill
Admit that when he was lived to CF and doing the move in front of the Cb to score like he did at Arsenal I was thinking he may be the answer. But I was wrong
Jurgen the German
Tommy Harmer
You said he’s not prolific. Never mentioned specific games or periods of the season. Only when I highlighted he scored goals as a CF earlier in the season you pivoted to post Chelsea.
Jurgen the German
Tommy Harmer
Yeah I’m not saying he doesn’t have flaws or that he’s perfect for our system. We all know what Son’s strengths and weaknesses are by now. But we’re conceding goals for fun, have issues in midfield and the forwards in general need upgrading but people are fixating on Son even though he has 15 goals and has plenty of assists. Seems a strange thing to focus on when IMO we’ve got other more urgent needs that need addressing. Btw I’m not saying DONT buy another CF but at present he’s the best we’ve got. I don’t think that’s even debatable.
Jurgen the German
Tommy Harmer
I think the whole team is very up and down right now, don’t know what to expect from one game to the next. We’re far too open, the midfield isn’t functioning like we would want it too and we’ve got 3/5 of the back five (GK included) who haven’t completed a full season. People seem to be advocating for Richarlison, fine, but let’s not pretend he doesn’t have flaws of his own. He was missing chances for fun for the first few months of the season, it’s only because we were winning games that it wasn’t costing us. His overall play was ok but not outstanding. Its possible the Asia cup wasn’t ideal for Son at his age and being in the middle of the season and perhaps he’s carrying a knock, he isn’t at his best right now but I’m not sure what people would realistically expect from us if we started with Werner, Johnson and Richy. None of them excel at finishing.
Jurgen the German
Tommy Harmer
Bedford I remember a few weeks back during the international break you were advocating that Southgate should play Bellingham not in his best position to accommodate Maddison. I mean one of them has been one of the best players and an ever present in one of the best teams in world football and the other has been injured for 3 months and has struggled to regain his form in a team that isn’t certain to finish in the top 4. Sorry to derail the thread somewhat but you said I was a WUM but it’s an example of how some of your posts can across as blinkered and I’d put money on you arguing the exact opposite if you supported Real Madrid.
I’m all for upgrading any position in the team, that’s why I’m always banging on about the forwards needing to be upgraded on. IMO I think you’re oversimplifying Son’s form and making everything about his CF play when we’ve got issues all over the pitch; Udogie not tracking back and his general laziness, Bentancur and Maddison struggling since coming back from injury, Bissouma’s form, VDV whilst being electric in terms of pace still finishing his feet in the league and still forming a partnership with Romero, Ange bedding his system and style of play into the club. But it seems to be all about Son not being able to hold the ball up?
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
England isn’t the premier league. It’s a lower standard where you deal with the cards you have based on the players from your country
The premier league is much harder. You get to buy players for a start to make your team better and IMO england would be better with Bellingham box to box instead of Mainoo and then Maddison (assuming he is actually fit) okaying the 10 role, linking up with Bellingham. But it’s got no relevance to Tottenham or the prem. but just to add to it… Bellingham played dox to box at Dortmund too dont forget, and started for England there. Yes he is having a great season for Madrid playing there although he was awful midweek, but that’s after a 9 day break
And I’m not even focusing I everyone else because they aren’t playing out of position like son. We look awful through the middle, which is where the counters come from because we’re having to play son there. That’s not son’s fault, although he could do a lot more to make it work. I think that may be why he was pulled today as Ange saw that. You defend from the front. Every good team does. If your start point for that is broken, your other players have to do something
And you’re right about the others. They have had some really poor games (Micky today was his first).
But according to many, we lost today because weren’t missed two sitters…. Yeah thats the view. It’s odd because neither were sitters and the second one if son was on the left, he would do better than Werner imo. Bu5 we have people blaming the attacking wide players for the defensive issues because were exposed elsewhere
Every position can be upgraded upon and that should always be the case. The key for us is the CF and 6 over anything else for me as that’s where it all goes wrong. No ball retention up top and no one fighting the fires when teams counter us. The wide forward options are fine and things that can addressed if we sort the other two issues out. I’d argue full back cover is more key than them TBH
Jurgen the German
Tommy Harmer
I’d upgrade the wide forwards way before Son but we should look at every position possible financially this summer to upgrade. If we sign Werner and we therefore don’t have enough left to sign another forward then that’s a mistake IMO. If it’s Werner and another forward then ok. But Werner on his own please GHod no! Johnson is still settling and too early to tell. Kulu has regressed but I’d still keep him as he can cover more than one position. Richarlison I’m ambivalent towards. I don’t think he’s the answer despite his numbers this season but he can do a job. Keep the same front line next season and i think you’d get more days like today even if we improve everywhere else on the pitch.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
I have not said we need to upgrade son. I’ve never said that. But he isnt and never will be a CF in a possession side and he is 31 so learning a new way of playing at that age is very unlikely
Werner and son as options on the left is good. I know you’re not Werner fan and I’m ambivalent towards him but statically he has a very decent record for us and that’s without a CF there who knows what he is doing in this system. Him and son are two very different options on the left
I’m hoping that with Kulu it’s an adaptation thing. He does come inside way too often for Ange ball but again, it doesn’t make him a poor player, just one who isn’t suited currently. I don’t know the fix there and it’s a worry IMO. Maybe he is now just a 10
Richy cant stay fit, here or anywhere and that’s a huge worry. We need another striker because veliz isn’t ready and ange won’t promote a kid. That’s where I’d start and as mentioned in another thread the string links again to the Mexican guy at Feyenoord suggest to me it’s high on the plan.
I’m worried that the defence in paper is quality players yet we concede so weakly. I’m not sure it’s just the 6 issue but something isnt right, clearly. It’s why I focus on ball retention in key areas. We get countered every time we lose it because it’s nearly always central (given opposition options both sides) and it’s nearly always from an attacker being the man on the edge of their area with the wing backs level with him…. That’s why Sarr is so important as he does the hard yards there to cover, but we don’t know how much the fasting has affected his game
Jurgen the German
Tommy Harmer
Son isn’t perfect at CF but he gets goals and IMO he’s better there this age than on the left. You’re using Werner’s stats at Spurs but it’s far too small a sample size. Look at his entire career, he misses chances, less so in Germany but in England he isn’t prolific.
I think we’re far too gung ho personally. We’re always going to lose the ball at some point and get countered on. Even mediocre teams like Everton come to our ground and put us under the cosh. Forest did as well. Udogie is lazy and has a mistake in him. Bissouma has been below the level we need for a while when he hasn’t been suspended that is. Better players would help. A number 6 and at least one wide forward would be where I would start.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
Werner even outside of spurs has a 1 in 2 goal or assist number. And that’s a guy who we know can’t shoot
Teams put us under because they know their defence isn’t being worked. Not that anyone will go back and watch games but I do sometimes because I’m bored at lunchtime working from home. The opposition CBS have all the time in the world. Did you see who had the shot for forrest from distance against us… pretty sure it was the CB. No pressure on him and he knows our CF ain’t following him as he was drifting away somewhere else
Everton did the same thing except richy did a number back on them. What they did was stay with a back 4/5 and none of those players went forward. Saudi Sportswashing Machine did it too. West Ham too
All they are doing is saying, break us down Tottenham. We can’t do it well enough so they just stay put and let their midfield and attack counter arguably with energy too as they aren’t defending
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
See my comments above
The goals as a striker are mainly against defences that don’t low block
When we play a low block he doesn’t affect the game as a CF
spurspinter1
Paul Stalteri
100% agreed. I'd be interested to see the results with Richy upfront compared to Son there, not sure if it would be enough of a sample size to say anything though I guess.
What's clear is that Son is the best finisher at the club, that's not in question. But Son has many games where the touch, passing, hold up play just isn't there, but then he'll pop up our of nowhere with a goal. Whether or not those goals are meaningful or not is another question, but it's how damaging his general all round bad play is to what we're trying to do. It was noted in the OMT, it seems like a fair few times that Son loses the ball in positions that leave us exposed.
It's a very strange crossroads with Son now, when you look at the goal involvements it's obvious that he's contributed but it doesn't sweep away the mounting performances like yesterday. Ange finally had enough around the 60 minute mark but there's nobody to replace him with if Richy is out - Johnson / Werner up front is more of the same with worse finishing. From an attacking / defending point of view, I'd much rather see a CF with a bit of presence as we were getting bullied in both boxes yesterday (if and when we actually made it in to their box that is).
Obviously this isn't aimed at you Tommy, as ever I don't have any real place to be calling out others on how they debate / talk to each other but calling each other wums for having different opinions is an odd one. It seems like beef from other threads keeps coming up and it might be worth wiping the slate clean if possible.
Bishop
Terry Venables
Honestly we need better wingers. Neither of them can dribble, both only want to take their man on when there is space in behind. Yet our midfield plays short passes that compress the space giving time for the defenders to get into position we then rarely switch the the play over distance or play into space. Add to that these wingers who don't take their man on, and who can't take shots at goal (Johnson on the right) or are just poor finishers (Werner). So our game plan is low percentage low crosses across the box? Meh, that is a very low percentage attack for me.
For this system to work it needs more variety, we need threaded passes beyond the forwards. We need longer distance sharper passes into space on the wings for Wener and Johnson to run on to and yes maybe we need a different type of striker. The striker needs the instinct of course, but they need fantastic tight touch and control and they need to be able to body weave some space to get the shot off. Richie is not the answer either as he lacks in the same areas that we need strengths in.
If we want to play the short passing game then frankly we need forwards with better touch and control then Johnson, and players truly able to dribble and beat a man from standing start not this hit the ball forward and run at pace which is both of Werner and Johnson. We need a deeper midfielder who can switch the ball over distance and ideally hit it between lines when the opportunity presents itself and we need an AM who can consistently find the threaded passes through massed lines. As it is we play to feet constantly in the box but we don't have dribblers so we struggle to break down the tight lines or fashion space for a shot.
tommysvr
Justin Edinburgh
Ultimately I think we agree on things but these are the games Son has started as ST and scored in this season. There are a few low-block teams in there. https://thfcdb.com/people/heung-min-son?tab=matches&filterSeasons[0]=883914&startingStatus=startingXi&matchEvents=goal&position=st&selectedView=list
The 10 matches he started up front but didn't score in:
