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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

Finney Is Back said:
And I have heard much worse directly from various groups of anti-semites. It’s not a point scoring match is it? Or maybe in some people’s eyes it is?

If you genuinely want peace (and not the annihilation of Israel/Jews, then why not be absolutely clear on that in your protest?

Why not just the second half of the slogan I bolded?
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I do tend to agree that the use of the original iteration of the phrase is offensive to many Israelis and Jewish people so pro-palestinian groups should refrain from its use. Even if no offence is meant (and I am sure in a lot of cases it's not, just like many Spurs fans shouting "Yid") the basis for peace between Palestinians and Israelis has to start with mutual respect - something which seems so far away at the moment.

The problem is the different connotation of the phrase for the different groups means it is unlikely to stop any time soon.
 
scaramanga said:
Largely true. But what separates ethnicity from belief is that it's an accident of birth, and therefore not a choice, like gender, sexual orientation, etc.

You can't judge people on those things unless you're a monster, like those protesting yesterday. You can judge on religion as it's a choice.
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But you can reject those, or some of those, social constructs so it isn't a non-choice thing like gender or sexual orientation.

I was born in England to a Scottish father and an Irish mother. I choose not to be a Little Englander and view myself as more British than English, more European than British and a citizen of nowhere/everywhere with greater affection and similarities with different sections of societies from Southern Africa, the Caribbean, the Middle East and parts of Europe where I have lived or worked.

Ethnicity is about nurture not nature so is flexible and selective. A dog born in a stable ain't a horse due to the accident of where it was born.
 
Finney Is Back said:
And I have heard much worse directly from various groups of anti-semites. It’s not a point scoring match is it? Or maybe in some people’s eyes it is?

If you genuinely want peace (and not the annihilation of Israel/Jews, then why not be absolutely clear on that in your protest?

Why not just the second half of the slogan I bolded?
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It shouldn’t be but a slogan created by and for Palestinians against oppression and occupation has been hijacked as a point-scoring contest by Israel. In the eyes of Palestinians, it’s very clear that it’s not the annihilation of Israel/Jews but the freedom for autonomous living that the slogan represents. Any discussion around that is therefore simply opinion.

Again, for context. Do you condemn the use of ‘river to the sea’ in any circumstance? This is from the Likud party original charter:

IMG_3538.jpeg

I’m not going to comment on this particular subject anymore, the purpose of our government and the right wing press was met by making it a hot culture war issue and in effect distracting from the fact our government is illicit in their support of what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank. Many only decided it was an issue when Sackella Braverman enforced it into the public sphere a few weeks ago. Our government stoked a fire and got the explosion they wanted. I don’t want any part of that and am also guilty of getting swept up in it again.
 
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Robspur12 said:
I do tend to agree that the use of the original iteration of the phrase is offensive to many Israelis and Jewish people so pro-palestinian groups should refrain from its use. Even if no offence is meant (and I am sure in a lot of cases it's not, just like many Spurs fans shouting "Yid") the basis for peace between Palestinians and Israelis has to start with mutual respect - something which seems so far away at the moment.

The problem is the different connotation of the phrase for the different groups means it is unlikely to stop any time soon.
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Really, really easy to stop and remove the ambiguity though right? I mean if you really wanted to show all that you mean/want is freedom for Palestinian people?
 
Lost Mango said:
But you can reject those, or some of those, social constructs so it isn't a non-choice thing like gender or sexual orientation.

I was born in England to a Scottish father and an Irish mother. I choose not to be a Little Englander and view myself as more British than English, more European than British and a citizen of nowhere/everywhere with greater affection and similarities with different sections of societies from Southern Africa, the Caribbean, the Middle East and parts of Europe where I have lived or worked.

Ethnicity is about nurture not nature so is flexible and selective. A dog born in a stable ain't a horse due to the accident of where it was born.
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But it was still born in a stable, it didn’t get a choice in that, so anyone discriminating against the dog/horse/whatever it feels it is, purely because of the fact that it was born in a stable deserves contempt. I think that is what Scara is getting at.
 
Lost Mango said:
But you can reject those, or some of those, social constructs so it isn't a non-choice thing like gender or sexual orientation.

I was born in England to a Scottish father and an Irish mother. I choose not to be a Little Englander and view myself as more British than English, more European than British and a citizen of nowhere/everywhere with greater affection and similarities with different sections of societies from Southern Africa, the Caribbean, the Middle East and parts of Europe where I have lived or worked.

Ethnicity is about nurture not nature so is flexible and selective. A dog born in a stable ain't a horse due to the accident of where it was born.
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Yet people cannot (or should not) criticise you for being born in England. Neither can (should) they for the roots of your parents. Yet people do that to those with Jewish roots all the time.
 
spurspinter1 said:
From what I understand the aim is peace all over the world not just in one part of it.

I didn't go on a march when 9/11 happened, it's generally a given that people are against terrorist attacks and protesting isn't going to stop terrorist cells doing what they're doing. However, protests / revolutions regarding conflicts / wars can (eventually) have an impact on governmental decisions and policies but you already know this as well as the difference between marching against terrorism versus marching for peace. I remember going to a protest against the Iraq war, because I didn't protest the terrorist attack as well does that mean I was pro the planes going in to towers?

Stop with the squirming and just do better, even by your standards these last two weak diversion posts are low. If you had anything about you, you'd apologize for the suggestion of me not recognizing the amount of hate / antisemitism as it's a completely unfounded thing to say*

*Yes it's a silly suggestion as I don't believe apologies / showing self awareness is in your repertoire.
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You can underestimate the amount of anti-semitism from the marches or you can recognise the amount there is around. You can't have both. I didn't make an assumption of you, I reacted to the things you've posted in this thread.

Your analogy with Iraq isn't a great one as the UK was directly involved in one of the events and not the other. A better analogy would be you marching for peace in Ukraine but only insisting the Ukrainian government downed arms, naïvely believing that would end in peace.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Different tactics employed though, the Met are rightfully picking off those people hiding in the hundreds of thousands, been plenty of reporting of that and arrests. Its easier to nick a blanket of the EDL massive when theory MO is pure carnage, they are not even subtle about it.
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There is a clear difference in methods.

One group got kettled and held like football fans in Europe. The other are getting "We'll sit on our arses until someone tells us who it was and then we'll go and knock on their door later"

One is a very visible deterrent, the other does nothing to discourage the growth of that behaviour.
 
scaramanga said:
You can underestimate the amount of anti-semitism from the marches or you can recognise the amount there is around. You can't have both. I didn't make an assumption of you, I reacted to the things you've posted in this thread.

Your analogy with Iraq isn't a great one as the UK was directly involved in one of the events and not the other. A better analogy would be you marching for peace in Ukraine but only insisting the Ukrainian government downed arms, naïvely believing that would end in peace.
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I haven't estimated any amount of anti semitism and you absolutely made an unfounded accusation. It's as unfounded as the idea that 300,000 people marching are monsters.

Listen mate I truly appreciate the work you put in to the forum but you don't half post some flimflam and you are a slimy fudger about it as well. When being politely asked to consider the implications of your language, rather than actually having a sincere think about it you make a totally random serious allegation based on zilch.

And it's an excellent analogy because something doesn't have to be exactly identical for there to be a transferable idea. You sit there not standing for anything whilst making random assertions on what people should be protesting to make it seem okay in your eyes, but noone sensible would place any value on what you think anyways.

Unless it's an apology and a change of tact I'm genuinely not interested in your pathetic squirming any more. One day I hope you can have a discussion in good faith, I really do.
 
Robspur12 said:
The equivalence is that both have been called out as antisemitic... whatever the motives.
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One is associated with removing a people from their land, the other a term that came about defending racism. There are jewish Spurs fans who’re quietly proud of this organic solidarity. Vastly different in this sense.
 
SpurMeUp said:
One is associated with removing a people from their land, the other a term that came about defending racism. There are jewish Spurs fans who’re quietly proud of this organic solidarity. Vastly different in this sense.
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I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. As far as I am concerned, if I use a term that someone affected by it considers to be offensive and intimidating, I should stop using it, whether I agree or not. Otherwise you get into levels of antisemitism or racism.
 
Robspur12 said:
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. As far as I am concerned, if I use a term that someone affected by it considers to be offensive and intimidating, I should stop using it, whether I agree or not. Otherwise you get into levels of antisemitism or racism.
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Which is by definition right
we should make more effort to stop using because of that alone
 
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