Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[scaramanga]

yep it was taken from them.

“The LoN gave it to Britain.” there is more much more to it than that.

True, but land lost during a war is a perfectly normal event. That's not an unusual situation.

 

[scaramanga]

Ha! I must admit a lot of my posts towards him are more mischievous than out of any real vitriol

And I'm doing my best to educate (although it doesn't appear to be working)..

 

[braineclipse]

Yes exactly.

Paragraph 1 contradicting paragraph 2 was intended?

Look around you - just on this board - raking over the past will not help you reach a peace. Only forward thinking and planning can.

Both paragraph one and two were mostly questions about your opinion. So would depend on your answers.

Going over the past with a different attitude may help. Along with forward thinking and planning. But to even get there I think one needs some kind of mutual understanding of what the disappointments are and the wrongdoings on both sides.

 

[scaramanga]

You quoted a portion from an article, not the document and the full context.

They can and do also choose not to call other terrorists, ‘terrorists’. That…..was the point. I’m not going to bother opening the two links, instead I’ll do you a solid and give them to you, because I feel like you really, really need this. Some more homework:

Please can you tell me how long the BBC has been in existence and how many hours of news it has broadcast?
Please can you tell me how long the BBC has been online? And in reference to that, average out how many articles have been posted in that time. How many of those have been posted about Hamas (a rough percentage will do)
Please can you tell me how many times across all its news articles and broadcast content, the word ‘terrorist’ has been used explicitly by the BBC in reference first to Hamas, and then in general, so you can ascertain whether there is a bias in place.

At the moment you have two examples above, let’s go back to you sourcing 998 more examples (a tiny number still I’m sure you’ll agree in context). I’m going to buy you a big folder which you can put all your research in and some colouring pencils to make some pretty graphs and pie charts. You can compile everything together into a big dossier and call it whatever you like. Then we can arrange a date for you to march triumphantly into Portland Place with your lovely big dossier (I’ll even arrange a crew to shoot it for you if you like?) and hand it in to a runner to deliver straight to their complaints department. I truly believe it will be a special moment for you, a triumph of justice over evil. You’ll be known as Gosport’s answer to Laurence Fox, both very similar characters.

Feel free to DM me with your findings so we don’t derail this thread further with your special investigation.

I don’t have a subscription to The Telegraph, it sounds like four people have complained and without knowing the context, I imagine if the BBC responded they would just refer to their guidelines. And we come full circle…


Edit: Couldn't help myself, looked at the two further examples because I knew they would be a reach;

1. 'Alfie Stevens, 24, of Surrey Quays, pleaded guilty to three charges of dissemination of a terrorist document during a hearing at the Old Bailey.
2. York Council's definition which BBC has shared

1000 it is then.

4 KsC - hence my comment about them being better at interpreting regulations and guidelines.

As this has dragged on, it appears that the majority opinion is firmly against the BBC. They're standing alone now in the UK (well, along with the dregs of society that are trying to create some kind of equivalence).

 

[braineclipse]

Isn't it sad that we can't see beyond a world with no radical extremists? Israel is NOT a radical, extremist country

IF hamas were removed, then yes I do believe that for a period of time we might be able to enjoy some peace

Palestinians and Israelis CAN and DO live side by side currently, in Israel. They have jobs in Israel and then return to gaza. Israel does not hate the people of gaza...

The entire situation is sad. Humanity is too often a source of immense sadness.

You think Israel can remove Hamas through military action?

 

[scaramanga]

Take opinions like the one linked by Rorschach above. That's just of no use, just leads to more retribution? Been tried enough including from leaders and just gets everyone bogged down in history?

My impression is that Israel has been mostly unapologetic about the negative consequences of their actions on the Palestinian people. Do you disagree?

Been a long time since I've educated myself on the good friday agreement. A good understanding of, and empathy for, the grievances of the other sides was of little to no importance in reaching that agreement then?

All it took for the Good Friday agreement to be signed was a PM who was both desperate to ensure his legacy and willing to sell out our own military to get it.

 

[dawaxman]

The entire situation is sad. Humanity is too often a source of immense sadness.

You think Israel can remove Hamas through military action?

I hope they can

And the rest of the world should too

Because if they don't, they'll remove the Jews.

And after that they'll come for someone else.... could be you (I genuinely hope and pray it never has to come to that)

 

[braineclipse]

Where did Dawaxman outline his beliefs on Israel’s policies? He has stated he is not comfortable with settlers and favours a two state solution! Seems like you just want a fight and are trying to erect straw men to argue with. And that is the wider issue here. Many people who are rightly or wrongly against Isreals actions jumping in without a great deal of knowledge, accusing people who are grieving and trying to deal with a barbaric act of terror, of being wrong.

Can you appreciate this is not a black-and-white issue? For you to have your bias, is itself polarising. It is hard to get out of an in-group here, but that is the crux of the conflict.

I have repeatedly stated my point. That I think there's a need for more understanding and more empathy on both sides towards the other. I've repeatedly pointed out how I could see myself having essentially the same conversation with a Palestinian urging for more understanding and empathy. For an acknowledgement from both sides of the wrongdoing of their side.

I have pointed towards an example of what I would like to see more of. And I've tried to highlight how I see that as more useful than the current and recent policies of Israel. How I would like to see more of that also from people in power. On both sides.

To then be asked to appreciate that this is not a black or white issue... I give up. What I'm trying to say is not getting across at all for whatever reason. My ability to formulate my opinions clearly enough is obviously failing me.

 

[AuroRaman]

4 KsC - hence my comment about them being better at interpreting regulations and guidelines.

As this has dragged on, it appears that the majority opinion is firmly against the BBC. They're standing alone now in the UK (well, along with the dregs of society that are trying to create some kind of equivalence).

They can interpret guidelines however the want. They didn’t write the BBC guidelines on this so their opinion is hot air.

I agree on the second point. It’s unnecessary and causing an unnecessary brickstorm. Although it is enjoyable seeing it upset so many of the mundane and mediocre elements of our society.

 

[AuroRaman]

And I'm doing my best to educate (although it doesn't appear to be working)..

Of course you are Nepo Dave

*pats head

 

[scaramanga]

You think Israel can remove Hamas through military action?

This is probably the most important question going from where we are now.

I hope they can, it won't be easy though. The follow on question from yours is probably "What if they can't?"

If they can't, then Israeli people will never be able to live in peace. There's no number of concessions, no amount of land that will make Hamas happy to live with the existence of Israel. Hamas doesn't exist to fight for freedom or better conditions, Hamas exists because they have a medieval belief system that tells them the existence of Jews (or gays, or women with rights, etc) is inherently wrong.

My preferred outcome in Israel has always been a two state solution. I thought that was near to impossible before the last few days, now I can't see any way that can happen.

 

[P.D.]

This is probably the most important question going from where we are now.

I hope they can, it won't be easy though. The follow on question from yours is probably "What if they can't?"

If they can't, then Israeli people will never be able to live in peace. There's no number of concessions, no amount of land that will make Hamas happy to live with the existence of Israel. Hamas doesn't exist to fight for freedom or better conditions, Hamas exists because they have a medieval belief system that tells them the existence of Jews (or gays, or women with rights, etc) is inherently wrong.

My preferred outcome in Israel has always been a two state solution. I thought that was near to impossible before the last few days, now I can't see any way that can happen.

If a genuine 2 state solution came about then you'd find Hamas would just fade away (not gone but would lose their influence) because for the overwhelming majority they'd be happy with that. It's a minority of deranged people who wouldn't be happy with that.

 

[scaramanga]

If a genuine 2 state solution came about then you'd find Hamas would just fade away (not gone but would lose their influence) because for the overwhelming majority they'd be happy with that. It's a minority of deranged people who wouldn't be happy with that.

How would that happen? Would Hamas just allow free elections in Gaza? Would Iran just stop sending enough help for them to control the population and attack Israel?

Hamas would still need to be removed from the equation. We've all seen how hard it is to support that kind of situation - how many residents of Gaza would vote for a party that Israel helped by removing the opposition?

 

[P.D.]

How would that happen? Would Hamas just allow free elections in Gaza? Would Iran just stop sending enough help for them to control the population and attack Israel?

Hamas would still need to be removed from the equation. We've all seen how hard it is to support that kind of situation - how many residents of Gaza would vote for a party that Israel helped by removing the opposition?

They only have support because of hope and desperation, if those things are gone there would be little incentive for people to support them. I don't think you can fully remove them because Hamas as like most terrorists are a movement and people will always join those movements but they'll be far less influential. The same thing has happened with many terrorist groups in the past - look at Isis and Al Quaeda for example.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I have repeatedly stated my point. That I think there's a need for more understanding and more empathy on both sides towards the other. I've repeatedly pointed out how I could see myself having essentially the same conversation with a Palestinian urging for more understanding and empathy. For an acknowledgement from both sides of the wrongdoing of their side.

I have pointed towards an example of what I would like to see more of. And I've tried to highlight how I see that as more useful than the current and recent policies of Israel. How I would like to see more of that also from people in power. On both sides.

To then be asked to appreciate that this is not a black or white issue... I give up. What I'm trying to say is not getting across at all for whatever reason. My ability to formulate my opinions clearly enough is obviously failing me.

You were having a go at someone who you seemed to treat as an opponent, trying to get them to see your side. When they actually share some views with you - these are the shades of grey.

Finding and building consensus is more important than trying to make people think as you do. People who have deep ties that resonate which you presumably don't have. Jewish schools are shut today due to in-groups doign their thing. An Israeli consulate worker was attacked in China. A teacher stabbed in France. There is a personal and real resonance to these things, that presumably doesn't affect you. Trying to tell people what they should think is forlorn. Consensus building is far more beneficial. You want to paint a picture of Israelis being wrong, but it is far more nuanced. With swathes of Israelis agreeing with your outsider's perspective. Yet you put them in the same pot as one entity that needs to be educated/humbled? This just perpetuates conflict and in-groups.

 

[dawaxman]

If a genuine 2 state solution came about then you'd find Hamas would just fade away (not gone but would lose their influence) because for the overwhelming majority they'd be happy with that. It's a minority of deranged people who wouldn't be happy with that.

This is cute in that it's possibly the most naive thing I've ever seen an adult say

Have you seen hamas' actions this week? You think that if they are democratically elected out of power, they'll just fade away?

They are terrorists with a vice like grip on the people of Palestine

They don't want a two state solution

This is not a negotiation

They want an end to Israel and Jews

They aren't fading away

 

[Gutter Boy]

This is cute in that it's possibly the most naive thing I've ever seen an adult say

Have you seen hamas' actions this week? You think that if they are democratically elected out of power, they'll just fade away?

They are terrorists with a vice like grip on the people of Palestine

They don't want a two state solution

This is not a negotiation

They want an end to Israel and Jews

They aren't fading away

It happened with the IRA and UVF. They just became irrelevant boring old men or drug dealers.

 

[dawaxman]

It happened with the IRA and UVF. They just became irrelevant boring old men or drug dealers.

The situation is different because they both wanted something, they were willing to negotiate, eventually

I worked in soho through the 90's, so I got a tiny flavour of what was happening first hand

My recollection was that death wasn't the aim.... the bomb attacks were preceded by a warning so as to minimise the death toll

This is one example of how you can't compare these two situations

Oh and whose responsibility is it to install a government in Palestine that is willing to negotiate instead of the incumbents who have a stated mandate of destroying Israel and all Jews? Is it Israel's fault that hamas is in charge there?

 

[P.D.]

This is cute in that it's possibly the most naive thing I've ever seen an adult say

Have you seen hamas' actions this week? You think that if they are democratically elected out of power, they'll just fade away?

They are terrorists with a vice like grip on the people of Palestine

They don't want a two state solution

This is not a negotiation

They want an end to Israel and Jews

They aren't fading away

Of course I have, we've seen in the past that when some of these groups cease to have relevance with a majority that their influence fades over time. You can see the IRA, FARC, ETA etc. For the latter 2 their demands were never met either.

Anyway it's just my belief based on what I've seen in the past.

 

[dawaxman]

I pray for peace too

But for now, the terrorists need to be dealt with

And the Jews around the world need non-Jews alongside us