Ross Barkley

[DubaiSpur]

Mate, its just smart business, Everton wanted 50M for a player with one year left on contract who didn't want to play for them.

The price is now down to 30M give or take (depending on sources), he's injured (which will put off other clubs), and if (big unknown) we have spoken to him and he wants to come to play for Poch, holding off for a week or two just to get 5M or so off the price is perfectly understandable. 5M could be a ~20K raise for 5 players in current squad, vs. getting a guy in 3 weeks earlier to appease fans (and yes, I accept it adds some risk).

@AdamB pointed it out, but that additional risk isn't really insignificant - haggling over relatively tiny sums is only safe in a static environment where none of our players start acting out like Rose over our lack of signings and our painful attempts to get moving in the market, and where other clubs are content to hold off and let us pursue our targets down to the last day to shave bits off the deal. I think it's safe to say that such a static environment does not exist at present.

 

[AdamB]

Agreed. We should just buy him now - if it really is "just" £5m between us - and we can agree sensible terms with the player himself. Certainly not worth fannying around for that amount. We will probably get it back in Siggi's sell on fee anyway. Act now ffs.

That would be my view. Paying £30m for him I think is lower than he'd cost on a normal contract, and personally I rate him quite highly. I think he'd be a great addition

 

[Raziel]

@AdamB pointed it out, but that additional risk isn't really insignificant - haggling over relatively tiny sums is only safe in a static environment where none of our players start acting out like Rose over our lack of signings and our painful attempts to get moving in the market, and where other clubs are content to hold off and let us pursue our targets down to the last day to shave bits off the deal. I think it's safe to say that such a static environment does not exist at present.

I understand mate, but the "just pay the money" view is also a little simplistic.

- He couldn't even train until this week, should we overpay for a player who can't even do a medical?
- If we take Poch's word, we are looking at somewhere between 3-5 players, we are just not in the position to pay them all what they want.

I want us to improve the squad, think its obvious for depth and just the feel good part signings bring that we need it, but the window hasn't closed yet.

 

[milo]

@AdamB pointed it out, but that additional risk isn't really insignificant - haggling over relatively tiny sums is only safe in a static environment where none of our players start acting out like Rose over our lack of signings and our painful attempts to get moving in the market, and where other clubs are content to hold off and let us pursue our targets down to the last day to shave bits off the deal. I think it's safe to say that such a static environment does not exist at present.

£20m is hardly a tiny sum. Presumably, Everton would be pushing for more money up front earlier in the window too and Barkley may have been less willing to lower his wage demands.

 

[AdamB]

I understand mate, but the "just pay the money" view is also a little simplistic.

- He couldn't even train until this week, should we overpay for a player who can't even do a medical?
- If we take Poch's word, we are looking at somewhere between 3-5 players, we are just not in the position to pay them all what they want.

I want us to improve the squad, think its obvious for depth and just the feel good part signings bring that we need it, but the window hasn't closed yet.

I'd pay the money if the ask was £30m because I think its good value compared to what he's actually worth and think its worth locking him in rather than cheatski coming in for him. In that way, I dont think its simplistic (and I actually didnt use those words at all!!!). Assuming we then have another £30m-£40m or whatever is left from proceeds raised, I'm working on the basis that that is enough for the others needed (e.g. £15m for that Toljan chap or another RB, and the rest on an attacking type)

 

[DubaiSpur]

£20m is hardly a tiny sum. Presumably, Everton would be pushing for more money up front earlier in the window too and Barkley may have been less willing to lower his wage demands.

That logic only makes sense if the difference between our proposed prices *now* is 20m pounds - i.e, that if Everton value Barkley at 30m, we're hoping to get him for 10.

And I doubt even Levy is that blind to the realities of the market.

Waiting from the end of May to now was one thing. Waiting from now to August 31st is another thing entirely given the changed circumstances.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I'd pay the money if the ask was £30m because I think its good value compared to what he's actually worth and think its worth locking him in rather than cheatski coming in for him. In that way, I dont think its simplistic (and I actually didnt use those words at all!!!). Assuming we then have another £30m-£40m or whatever is left from proceeds raised, I'm working on the basis that that is enough for the others needed (e.g. £15m for that Toljan chap or another RB, and the rest on an attacking type)

Even if you could get him for around £20m if you waited 3 weeks? And that meant one less player Poch wanted?

 

[milo]

That logic only makes sense if the difference between our proposed prices *now* is 20m pounds - i.e, that if Everton value Barkley at 30m, we're hoping to get him for 10.

And I doubt even Levy is that blind to the realities of the market.

Waiting from the end of May to now was one thing. Waiting from now to August 31st is another thing entirely given the changed circumstances.

I was going by the reported £50m fee at the beginning of the window and £30m that they are now looking for. It would have been harder to push for our terms earlier in the window because Everton would have been likely to see if a richer club came in with a better offer.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I was going by the reported £50m fee at the beginning of the window and £30m that they are now looking for. It would have been harder to push for our terms earlier in the window because Everton would have been likely to see if a richer club came in with a better offer.

Sure. But that's not the case *now*.

I understand mate, but the "just pay the money" view is also a little simplistic.

- He couldn't even train until this week, should we overpay for a player who can't even do a medical?
- If we take Poch's word, we are looking at somewhere between 3-5 players, we are just not in the position to pay them all what they want.

I want us to improve the squad, think its obvious for depth and just the feel good part signings bring that we need it, but the window hasn't closed yet.

Fair - just pointing out that it goes both ways. There are rapidly-growing risks associated with bargaining for tiny sums at a time like this, and it's important to note that when decided how best to proceed.

 

[milo]

Sure. But that's not the case *now*.

I must've misunderstood your point.

I'm saying that by holding back we have seen the price reduce and are more likely to have the deal structured as we wish.

 

[AdamB]

Even if you could get him for around £20m if you waited 3 weeks? And that meant one less player Poch wanted?

The problems with that are (i) you're assuming that the price will fall further over the next 3 weeks - they're having problems securing Siggy so there will be a price at which Everton say, sod it, lets keep Barkley and accept he'll walk for zero in 12 months and (ii) there is a risk that cheatski or others would come in for him.

If you're buying a £40m - £50m asset for £30m, is that a terrible deal? Particularly when its someone that the manager has publicly said that he rates?

 

[DubaiSpur]

I must've misunderstood your point.

I'm saying that by holding back we have seen the price reduce and are more likely to have the deal structured as we wish.

Fair. I don't disagree - my point was more in response to @Raziel's suggestion that we hold off further to get a further 5m off the price. Circumstances change, and there are more pronounced risks associated with bargaining for a further drop in the price of 5m pounds now (as opposed to 20m pounds back in May).

 

[Pirate55]

The simple fact is that we are now operating in a different paradigm. To obtain half decent players we have to pay what the market, awash with money, is paying. There is no other alternative if we want to sign the players Poch has identified. To haggle for hagglings sake will simply not work in this market. Levy has to get that basic point. If we fail to recruit and as a result we fail to achieve our goals - and subsequently our best crop of players want out next season it will be a false economy.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The problems with that are (i) you're assuming that the price will fall further over the next 3 weeks - they're having problems securing Siggy so there will be a price at which Everton say, sod it, lets keep Barkley and accept he'll walk for zero in 12 months and (ii) there is a risk that cheatski or others would come in for him.

If you're buying a £40m - £50m asset for £30m, is that a terrible deal? Particularly when its someone that the manager has publicly said that he rates?

I suspect Levy and team are aware of these dynamics. And the likelihood is Barkley is onside - his team are communicating with ours. If we save £5m that could be the difference between signing the next player or not.

 

[the dza]

Sign him for £20m, with Sissoko on loan the other way with an option for them to buy him for £25m. Levy time.

 

[milo]

The simple fact is that we are now operating in a different paradigm. To obtain half decent players we have to pay what the market, awash with money, is paying. There is no other alternative if we want to sign the players Poch has identified. To haggle for hagglings sake will simply not work in this market. Levy has to get that basic point. If we fail to recruit and as a result we fail to achieve our goals - and subsequently our best crop of players want out next season it will be a false economy.

I disagree, there is always value to be found in a market, you just have to look in different places to everyone else. We cannot match the money paid by our immediate rivals and even if we do, they will just up their bids further.

 

[Pirate55]

I disagree, there is always value to be found in a market, you just have to look in different places to everyone else. We cannot match the money paid by our immediate rivals and even if we do, they will just up their bids further.

We are not competing with our immediate rivals in a bidding war. However, the recent payments made for players indicate the current state of the market. To buy players we have to pay market prices. To say we can find "bargains" elsewhere who would be adequate squad members let alone first teamers, is simply unrealistic.

 

[milo]

We are not competing with our immediate rivals in a bidding war. However, the recent payments made for players indicate the current state of the market. To buy players we have to pay market prices. To say we can find "bargains" elsewhere who would be adequate squad members let alone first teamers, is simply unrealistic.

Which signings are you using as a benchmark here?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I disagree, there is always value to be found in a market, you just have to look in different places to everyone else. We cannot match the money paid by our immediate rivals and even if we do, they will just up their bids further.

I spend at least 15 hours a week trading inplay in betfair in the evenings during the football season, I sometimes dont bet if the is nothing doing but keep an eye on it. Is different but the same Levy is watching and getting every last penny out of the market. It is something I admire about him, I wish he would sell the duds a little quicker.

But when it comes to buying players Levy has it down to a tee and fits in perfectly with where we are as a club, I admire the disciplined approach he has and it works. I also have long thought he likes getting players in at the end of the transfer window because he is then paying their wages for less a period of time. Though that can be counter productive as they do not get a full pre season under the coach.

 

[Gazza]

I spend at least 15 hours a week trading inplay in betfair in the evenings during the football season, I sometimes dont bet if the is nothing doing but keep an eye on it. Is different but the same Levy is watching and getting every last penny out of the market. It is something I admire about him, I wish he would sell the duds a little quicker.

But when it comes to buying players Levy has it down to a tee and fits in perfectly with where we are as a club, I admire the disciplined approach he has and it works. I also have long thought he likes getting players in at the end of the transfer window because he is then paying their wages for less a period of time. Though that can be counter productive as they do not get a full pre season under the coach.

That strategy works when buying many players not when we are looking at one out two top quality players.

Same arena the player can wait and get more wages in the next window, happens all the time.