Roberto De Zerbi *OFFICIAL*

[Muttley]

I do agree with you on Harry checking out to a point, but I don't think it was managers, it was on the club and the refusal of the club to back the manager.
Eventually he was going for personal records rather than what was best for the team.
Not right in my book, but difficult blame him.

Yeah, I thought he would have gone a year or two earlier to be fair. That was never my issue with Harry. I just think in 2021 when he had the City interest he changed his disposition as a Spurs player. Staying in Miami when we had a new manager through the door and making it all about him didn't sit well with me. Also, that nonsense with his brother as well.

I think we all know the history. We didn't spend so much back then and we certainly didn't buy well.

 

[Muttley]

So when it’s a negative it’s the managers fault (Southgate) but when something good happens it was down to their player (Modric). Why couldn’t our players have seen and corrected what you say Modric spotted? Why do you put it all on Southgate?

Nah, I never put it all on Southgate. You said that, not me. I think the defenders on the pitch could have corrected the Maguire/Young issue but I'm not sure what Hendo could do about what was happening around him to be fair. That overload was on the manager and he didn't change it all game. Southgate picked that formation. Playing a right footed wing back was never going to work. He even had Danny Rose sitting on the bench. He came on towards the end of the game and it looked more balanced. The problem was as much in the middle of the park.

 

[metalgear]

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overcomplicating things? knives out already

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

overcomplicating things? knives out already

Content for content sake, its all a wash

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agree and disagree, football is still very much a fluid game where scenarios arise where players need to use their own brains and intuition of the game to exceed.

The issue at Spurs is 100% in that area IMO, despite the "leadership" group none of them have a natural flair or feel for the game to show that level of responsibility or intuition. The only one that looks anywhere near that kind of player who has a decent footballing IQ is Gray

Coaches can drill into players things he wants them to do in certain moments and situations, its still down to the player to realise and know when he is in those situations in the heat of a game.

There is still space for freedom of thought, we are terrible at it

I think it’s the coaches drilling it out of them
And I do agree we don’t use our brains much
Let’s see how Cherki fares at city over time with his skills

 

[glasgowspur]

Thin and thin?

It’s been our most successful period ever.




Then he walked away from one of the biggest personal records there is.

Which he would have broken and probably run up a tally no one will ever beat if Levy had allowed him to move to city when he wanted to.
By then he had sussed spurs couldn't fulfil his ambition and were not about to invest to match it.

 

[WillWeEverBeGoodAgain]

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[thfcsteff]

I'm actually not playing the blame game though. That is perhaps your narrative. I'm actually stating that when the dynamic between manager and player isn't right then bad things can happen.

I think @Bedfordspurs said it above. It's about belief in the manager who needs to get the players onside. When that player believes in their manager, then great things can happen. I genuinely don't think Kane believed in most of the post-Poch systems even though they were clearly accommodating him more than others. I reckon Harry hated the Conte rope-a-dope first halves. The difference between him versus Moura and Sonny was that he knew what he should be doing to lead the line. He just didn't believe it is how we should be playing. I think Harry was perhaps more into Jose but hated that massive chasm between the deep midfield and himself and Sonny. Of course we will never know how Ange would have accommodated a more mature Kane in his setup. On the surface, it appeared that Ange wanted 10 outfield workaholics. Ange clearly moulded an important role for Solanke, in a way that Johnson and Son got the lion's share of goals. I'm not sure that could have been the case with Harry.

If you're honest, you'll read back the posts you've written on Kane and admit that you are blaming him for (as you have put it) not giving his all in various situations. Thus why I responded with a list of 'blamees'.

I am not sure if it is your point or @Bedfordspurs , but the rest of what you've written is (I'd say) absolutely on point with regards to Kane. Where I disagree is that he earned the rigtht to be heard. I think the way we played under both seriously hampered him, in a physical sense. I also think he suffered through the pandemic exhaustion/overplay issue.

 

[thfcsteff]

I was in Moscow in 2018 for Croatia. Southgate was a prick. He allowed Maguire to pull Ashley Young inside marking his man leaving Dele to manage the entire left side. Maguire and Stones were both free all of the time. Neither marked a player. That left Hendo running around like a mad man and to be fair to Lingard he worked hard as well. Raheem was fantastic in that first half against Croatia. But for very weak refereeing, we would have had them on yellows if not down to 10. They just couldn't have handled our direct running.

Then the second half happened. Modric spotted what I'm talking about and ran the show. He could see that Dele was playing as a second wing back and just kept the ball inside as they overloaded us.

One of the worst manager performances I've ever seen. Up there with what happened in the Euros a couple of years later. I still think we would have lost to France but we could have easily been in a WC final.

I first complained about the way in which Southgate was'adapting' Dele back at that time.
To accommodate Lingard/an extra attacking player. Had he played Dele in his natural position, I think we could've won the whole thing. In many ways it marked the start of something which is now ubiquitous...the death of the maverick/instinctually brilliant footballer. I doubt there'd be room for Berbatov in today's game sadly...

 

[Lemonade Money]

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Honestly, the people tripping over themselves to claim De Zerbi is going to be this or that, is so ITK minded. And then, when it doesn't happen, 'well he didnt do x, y, z like we said'. Let's just wait and see.

 

[thfcsteff]

Honestly, the people tripping over themselves to claim De Zerbi is going to be this or that, is so ITK minded. And then, when it doesn't happen, 'well he didnt do x, y, z like we said'. Let's just wait and see.

Agreed!!!
It's just nice to go into a weekend feeling optimistic!

 

[Muttley]

If you're honest, you'll read back the posts you've written on Kane and admit that you are blaming him for (as you have put it) not giving his all in various situations. Thus why I responded with a list of 'blamees'.

I am not sure if it is your point or @Bedfordspurs , but the rest of what you've written is (I'd say) absolutely on point with regards to Kane. Where I disagree is that he earned the rigtht to be heard. I think the way we played under both seriously hampered him, in a physical sense. I also think he suffered through the pandemic exhaustion/overplay issue.

I do think you should perhaps acknowledge that you can take a smaller narrative and position it as a bigger one to perhaps suit your own argument. LOL - you made it out as if I was blaming Kane for Ukraine, Iran and all the rest of Trumps misdemeanours. I really wasn't.

I was mostly giving examples of where the disharmony between managers and players causes issues. That was my main theme. @Bedfordspurs was stating that the manager needs to get the players buy in. I agree, but I probably put more emphasis on players following instructions and pushing back on them. I didn't like most of these managers and their tactics either but I still expect highly paid footballers to give their all and play to instruction whether they believe in it or not. Hojbjerg was yet another who played in that team who was caught walking over the half way line as the ball hit our net. Not a good look for someone in his position. This is what I often talk about when I think of the THFC culture. It is as if this behaviour is acceptable at our club.

All these small cogs make a difference in running the machine. I do blame these players for not playing their part in the bigger puzzle. Everyone needs to pay their part. However, I'm not one who ever thinks single root causes exist in football. Unless I'm mistaken that was your angle in the way you position my Kane commentary. It was as if I was saying all our woes were all on him. I wasn't and have never felt that. There are many contributing factors.

I do think the cultural issue is perhaps the biggest root cause at Spurs. It's the one that worries me the most.

 

[thfcsteff]

I do think you should perhaps acknowledge that you can take a smaller narrative and position it as a bigger one to perhaps suit your own argument. LOL - you made it out as if I was blaming Kane for Ukraine, Iran and all the rest of Trumps misdemeanours. I really wasn't.

I was mostly giving examples of where the disharmony between managers and players causes issues. That was my main theme. @Bedfordspurs was stating that the manager needs to get the players buy in. I agree, but I probably put more emphasis on players following instructions and pushing back on them. I didn't like most of these managers and their tactics either but I still expect highly paid footballers to give their all and play to instruction whether they believe in it or not. Hojbjerg was yet another who played in that team who was caught walking over the half way line as the ball hit our net. Not a good look for someone in his position. This is what I often talk about when I think of the THFC culture. It is as if this behaviour is acceptable at our club.

All these small cogs make a difference in running the machine. I do blame these players for not playing their part in the bigger puzzle. Everyone needs to pay their part. However, I'm not one who ever thinks single root causes exist in football. Unless I'm mistaken that was your angle in the way you position my Kane commentary. It was as if I was saying all our woes were all on him. I wasn't and have never felt that. There are many contributing factors.

I do think the cultural issue is perhaps the biggest root cause at Spurs. It's the one that worries me the most.

I don't want to go through your posts on Kane over time, but you've repeatedly called him out.
The only reason I raised Mourinho and Conte was to offer context to your repeated criticism of Kane (which I note you still have not acknowledged).

If you think I did this to somehow further a narrtative to suit an argument (??????), believe me, I have no need to 'create narratives' when it comes to slagging Mourinho and Conte LOL!

You literally said even in the last couple of posts that Kane was not playing for the team/manager. I offered some mitigation as to why that might be. That's it. 'Blaming him for Ukraine, Iran and the rest'????? A curious take. I honestly cannot fathom it.

Again, I fundamentally disagree with your take on Kane. It's fine. That's life. I do agree with you that he was certainly somewhat compromised by the City stuff, however much like Modric before, I did not see a discernible dip in his productivity and I believe his performances were shaped by the desires of the managers under whom he played.

Cannot remember if it was you who pointed out the club let us all (and him) down by not investing in the appropriate calibre around him. That is an excellent point.