Roberto De Zerbi *OFFICIAL*

[Bedfordspurs]

Thought this was the most interesting part of the article as it relates to our struggles this season, haven’t seen it mentioned really in the press until today:

“Though there is research to show that managers make negligible difference to performance – the key metrics of success are how much you spend on your players and therefore the quality of your squad – data also has blind spots. The emotional unity of a squad and its alignment with the personality of the manager is vital and can make a significant difference. Yet it is almost impossible to measure and requires a human rather than a data-led judgment to decide whether this manager is the right fit. “Just because you can’t measure it doesn’t mean it isn’t real,” said one football data analyst.”

Lange may well have been one of the early proponents of a data led approach. But swinging so far in that direction is what has gotten us in this mess. My hope is that RDZ gets into the heads of the players as well as being a modern, data driven manger that can fit with the structure of the club.

Been banging the drum for ages that people reflect their manager
If you have one that allows you freedom and encourages you to perform you will be very different IMO to one whose focus is on driving you in their way of working

 

[Muttley]

Been banging the drum for ages that people reflect their manager
If you have one that allows you freedom and encourages you to perform you will be very different IMO to one whose focus is on driving you in their way of working

There has to be compromise both ways though. Ultimately, it is down to the manager to get the players to believe in their philosophies. However, it is also down to the players to have some faith and, even if they have doubts, to knuckle down and follow the manager. The latter has been a long term problem at Spurs even with international captains who were passive aggressive to their managers. The latter day Kane was probably the best example of that. He'd say all the right things on interview but still be the guy that didn't show for the out ball, would pull out of a header with his back to goal or go through the motions of shutting down without really ever applying pressure on the GK or defender. You strip Kane back from the great goalscoring and I can imagine he gave his managers some dilemmas. The more obvious example was Sissoko who just let his heart rule his head whilst better players like Eriksen and Winks ended up covering in for him when he was caught ahead of play. No way any manager would want to constrain a maestro like Eriksen for a limited player like Mousa.

We have had several examples of where the managers are naturally compromised with some of our players. I don't think that will be the case with RDZ though. Even though a player like Romero can easily become a Kane, I don't thing RDZ will let it happen. He will keep Romero grounded in reality and probably improve him as a footballer.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There has to be compromise both ways though. Ultimately, it is down to the manager to get the players to believe in their philosophies. However, it is also down to the players to have some faith and, even if they have doubts, to knuckle down and follow the manager. The latter has been a long term problem at Spurs even with international captains who were passive aggressive to their managers. The latter day Kane was probably the best example of that. He'd say all the right things on interview but still be the guy that didn't show for the out ball, would pull out of a header with his back to goal or go through the motions of shutting down without really ever applying pressure on the GK or defender. You strip Kane back from the great goalscoring and I can imagine he gave his managers some dilemmas. The more obvious example was Sissoko who just let his heart rule his head whilst better players like Eriksen and Winks ended up covering in for him when he was caught ahead of play. No way any manager would want to constrain a maestro like Eriksen for a limited player like Mousa.

We have had several examples of where the managers are naturally compromised with some of our players. I don't think that will be the case with RDZ though. Even though a player like Romero can easily become a Kane, I don't thing RDZ will let it happen. He will keep Romero grounded in reality and probably improve him as a footballer.

Don’t think there can be a compromise and that’s where we may have failed before

The manager sets the tone from the start and creates their own culture (now more than ever with modern managers imo)

And I still don’t get your negativity about Kane mate

 

[thfcsteff]

He looks a bit frustrated calling that out. Both imply players need to be brave (to take one...two ...three touches) and run to make himself available for the pass.

It's great because we are severely lacking in those areas but weird at the same time because they are very basic game behaviour. I play with young kids a lot and the problem is usually restricting their love of enjoying the ball by themselves and being the centre of play all the time.

I'm wondering if under Lange we have incomplete individual player performance metrics that have led us down the wrong way. Whatever it is , I am sure we will see better performance from game #1 with dzb.

No mate, we just endured one of the most risk-averse and timid managers in our history, someone who actually sapped that sort of instinctual movement and bravery out of the players.
They have had the confidence battered out of them. That's been absolutely clear to the eye-test. It really is that simple. He did not ever really believe in taking risks despite trying to gaslight us for two thirds of a season (whilst also telling us how well we were playing - it was brick!).

 

[Muttley]

Don’t think there can be a compromise and that’s where we may have failed before

The manager sets the tone from the start and creates their own culture (now more than ever with modern managers imo)

And I still don’t get your negativity about Kane mate

It's not negativity really though. It was the reality we found ourselves in with him. I saw it as an England fan as well. The difference was the England fans weren't biased Spurs fans like we were. They would call Kane out on the terraces, which eventually happened with guys like Roy Keane and other pundits. They saw the reality that Kane was playing on his own terms which was really different from the younger Kane who played on Poch's terms. It happened with Jose and Sonny as well. Sonny almost went on strike in the end and refused to play that left channel role how his manager wanted him to.

It's also what I'm feeling might be happening with Romero right now. We need him to listen to RDZ and become a much better player.

 

[thfcsteff]

There has to be compromise both ways though. Ultimately, it is down to the manager to get the players to believe in their philosophies. However, it is also down to the players to have some faith and, even if they have doubts, to knuckle down and follow the manager. The latter has been a long term problem at Spurs even with international captains who were passive aggressive to their managers. The latter day Kane was probably the best example of that. He'd say all the right things on interview but still be the guy that didn't show for the out ball, would pull out of a header with his back to goal or go through the motions of shutting down without really ever applying pressure on the GK or defender. You strip Kane back from the great goalscoring and I can imagine he gave his managers some dilemmas. The more obvious example was Sissoko who just let his heart rule his head whilst better players like Eriksen and Winks ended up covering in for him when he was caught ahead of play. No way any manager would want to constrain a maestro like Eriksen for a limited player like Mousa.

We have had several examples of where the managers are naturally compromised with some of our players. I don't think that will be the case with RDZ though. Even though a player like Romero can easily become a Kane, I don't thing RDZ will let it happen. He will keep Romero grounded in reality and probably improve him as a footballer.

I have to say, I will always find your agenda against Kane bordering on breathtaking. As for Eriksen/Sissoko, are you trying to say you think over-accomodation of Sissoko led to Eriksen becoming ineffective because he was covering for Mousa all the time? That is distinctly not how I remember things. Winks possibly because the pair ended up playing together a fair few times.

 

[WillWeEverBeGoodAgain]

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[thfcsteff]

It's not negativity really though. It was the reality we found ourselves in with him. I saw it as an England fan as well. The difference was the England fans weren't biased Spurs fans like we were. They would call Kane out on the terraces, which eventually happened with guys like Roy Keane and other pundits. They saw the reality that Kane was playing on his own terms which was really different from the younger Kane who played on Poch's terms. It happened with Jose and Sonny as well. Sonny almost went on strike in the end and refused to play that left channel role how his manager wanted him to.

It's also what I'm feeling might be happening with Romero right now. We need him to listen to RDZ and become a much better player.

OK, this Kane business.
Blame the club. Blame Mourinho. Blame Conte.
They're the ones who essentially set us up to feed Kane primarily, Sonny as well albeit not to the degree of Kane.
You talk about Poch; Poch was the one who had a team, built a team, and made sure we produced from all sorts of areas.
Mourinho essentially set us up to give it to Kane. Conte did the same except he also had Sonny in his mix.
Such incredible coaches decided to try and 'short-cut' it. Toss pots.
Besides all that, kane had to protect himself in a league where we constantly see a lack of protection for elite players (even more so when Kane was with us)...

We won't agree, I'm aware of that and understand each of us is strident in our opinions; I just wanted to note mine

 

[Muttley]

I have to say, I will always find your agenda against Kane bordering on breathtaking. As for Eriksen/Sissoko, are you trying to say you think over-accomodation of Sissoko led to Eriksen becoming ineffective because he was covering for Mousa all the time? That is distinctly not how I remember things. Winks possibly because the pair ended up playing together a fair few times.

I think it is probably hard to contextualise it now. As you know, I was on a different forum in those days but happily remember some really intelligent posters calling Kane out in the moment for the things he did. I saw and heard it on the terraces as well as an England fan. You could see that Harry could have easily moved 10 yards left or right and show for the ball and relieve the pressure. You could also see that he would jump early and pretend he was going for a header only for the defender to win it almost uncontested. Football is really subtle. We've all played it and know these little tricks of the trade. Doesn't mean he wasn't one of my favourite players though. In the Euro's (2021), Kane was a massive problem. I even saw Kyle Walker lose his brick with him for what I'm talking about. I think the biggest thing here is perhaps that as fans we became too serving of him because he was so fantastic. He almost became above criticism. As you probably know by now, not with me.

With Eriksen / Sissoko it was an interesting dilemma. Think back to prime Eriksen and Dele. The reason we conceded only 26 goals in the 16/17 season was because we had the smarts of those 2 defensively. Yes, we had a great defence and massively underrated players like Dier stopping the goals going in. However, what we also had was 2 incredibly intelligent attacking midfielders that knew exactly when to drop in and support the guys behind the. Kane as well, but less so Sonny who never had those smarts. Then we saw all the injuries to guys like Wanyama, Dembele, Winks and eventually Dier. Eriksen just got deeper and deeper. He stopped being the player that found all those holes in the attacking areas. He ended up covering the midfield holes left by the injuries and Sissoko just did his own thing. Eriksen at his very best run marathons. He was constantly moving and finding holes to show for the ball. He would be top 5 runners in the Prem along with guys like Gylfi. That stopped when he was placed with Sissoko. It also saw Winksy as a bit of a Scholesy in the early days. That stopped as well as he ended up having to be the holder. All this of course is part of the decline we saw. Sissoko wasn't a bad guy at all. He just didn't take responsibility and be the team player at times.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think it is probably hard to contextualise it now. As you know, I was on a different forum in those days but happily remember some really intelligent posters calling Kane out in the moment for the things he did. I saw and heard it on the terraces as well as an England fan. You could see that Harry could have easily moved 10 yards left or right and show for the ball and relieve the pressure. You could also see that he would jump early and pretend he was going for a header only for the defender to win it almost uncontested. Football is really subtle. We've all played it and know these little tricks of the trade. Doesn't mean he wasn't one of my favourite players though. In the Euro's (2021), Kane was a massive problem. I even saw Kyle Walker lose his brick with him for what I'm talking about. I think the biggest thing here is perhaps that as fans we became too serving of him because he was so fantastic. He almost became above criticism. As you probably know by now, not with me.

With Eriksen / Sissoko it was an interesting dilemma. Think back to prime Eriksen and Dele. The reason we conceded only 26 goals in the 16/17 season was because we had the smarts of those 2 defensively. Yes, we had a great defence and massively underrated players like Dier stopping the goals going in. However, what we also had was 2 incredibly intelligent attacking midfielders that knew exactly when to drop in and support the guys behind the. Kane as well, but less so Sonny who never had those smarts. Then we saw all the injuries to guys like Wanyama, Dembele, Winks and eventually Dier. Eriksen just got deeper and deeper. He stopped being the player that found all those holes in the attacking areas. He ended up covering the midfield holes left by the injuries and Sissoko just did his own thing. Eriksen at his very best run marathons. He was constantly moving and finding holes to show for the ball. He would be top 5 runners in the Prem along with guys like Gylfi. That stopped when he was placed with Sissoko. It also saw Winksy as a bit of a Scholesy in the early days. That stopped as well as he ended up having to be the holder. All this of course is part of the decline we saw. Sissoko wasn't a bad guy at all. He just didn't take responsibility and be the team player at times.

With regards to Kane I think it was a combination of preservation and tactics. I think you're suggesting he hid at times; I vehemently disagree.

The Eriksen point is really interesting and I must say I can absolutely see what you're saying there 100%. Dele's a little different for me in so much as Southgate essentially compromised him in 2018 by drafting him into that new, deeper role so as he could accommodate Lingard too. I am not sure that did Dele long-term favours. Sissoko was a workhorse; I never saw him as necessarily a smart player more than a very hard-working one, so whilst he obviously took some responsibility, I'd say the type you're looking for would be very hard for him. I agree with Winks; he really did suffer over the years.

 

[Muttley]

OK, this Kane business.
Blame the club. Blame Mourinho. Blame Conte.
They're the ones who essentially set us up to feed Kane primarily, Sonny as well albeit not to the degree of Kane.
You talk about Poch; Poch was the one who had a team, built a team, and made sure we produced from all sorts of areas.
Mourinho essentially set us up to give it to Kane. Conte did the same except he also had Sonny in his mix.
Such incredible coaches decided to try and 'short-cut' it. Toss pots.
Besides all that, kane had to protect himself in a league where we constantly see a lack of protection for elite players (even more so when Kane was with us)...

We won't agree, I'm aware of that and understand each of us is strident in our opinions; I just wanted to note mine

I'm actually not playing the blame game though. That is perhaps your narrative. I'm actually stating that when the dynamic between manager and player isn't right then bad things can happen.

I think @Bedfordspurs said it above. It's about belief in the manager who needs to get the players onside. When that player believes in their manager, then great things can happen. I genuinely don't think Kane believed in most of the post-Poch systems even though they were clearly accommodating him more than others. I reckon Harry hated the Conte rope-a-dope first halves. The difference between him versus Moura and Sonny was that he knew what he should be doing to lead the line. He just didn't believe it is how we should be playing. I think Harry was perhaps more into Jose but hated that massive chasm between the deep midfield and himself and Sonny. Of course we will never know how Ange would have accommodated a more mature Kane in his setup. On the surface, it appeared that Ange wanted 10 outfield workaholics. Ange clearly moulded an important role for Solanke, in a way that Johnson and Son got the lion's share of goals. I'm not sure that could have been the case with Harry.

 

[Muttley]

With regards to Kane I think it was a combination of preservation and tactics. I think you're suggesting he hid at times; I vehemently disagree.

The Eriksen point is really interesting and I must say I can absolutely see what you're saying there 100%. Dele's a little different for me in so much as Southgate essentially compromised him in 2018 by drafting him into that new, deeper role so as he could accommodate Lingard too. I am not sure that did Dele long-term favours. Sissoko was a workhorse; I never saw him as necessarily a smart player more than a very hard-working one, so whilst he obviously took some responsibility, I'd say the type you're looking for would be very hard for him. I agree with Winks; he really did suffer over the years.

I was in Moscow in 2018 for Croatia. Southgate was a prick. He allowed Maguire to pull Ashley Young inside marking his man leaving Dele to manage the entire left side. Maguire and Stones were both free all of the time. Neither marked a player. That left Hendo running around like a mad man and to be fair to Lingard he worked hard as well. Raheem was fantastic in that first half against Croatia. But for very weak refereeing, we would have had them on yellows if not down to 10. They just couldn't have handled our direct running.

Then the second half happened. Modric spotted what I'm talking about and ran the show. He could see that Dele was playing as a second wing back and just kept the ball inside as they overloaded us.

One of the worst manager performances I've ever seen. Up there with what happened in the Euros a couple of years later. I still think we would have lost to France but we could have easily been in a WC final.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It's not negativity really though. It was the reality we found ourselves in with him. I saw it as an England fan as well. The difference was the England fans weren't biased Spurs fans like we were. They would call Kane out on the terraces, which eventually happened with guys like Roy Keane and other pundits. They saw the reality that Kane was playing on his own terms which was really different from the younger Kane who played on Poch's terms. It happened with Jose and Sonny as well. Sonny almost went on strike in the end and refused to play that left channel role how his manager wanted him to.

It's also what I'm feeling might be happening with Romero right now. We need him to listen to RDZ and become a much better player.

cant agree mate

Kane played on his own terms only in a way that be tried to lift the team up

The guys a record scorer for us and England and is potentially setting a record in Germany this season

Sonny has done it too

Players imo do what the managers ask imo. Modern players do what the coaches ask almost to the letter (too much again imo)

 

[glasgowspur]

I'm actually not playing the blame game though. That is perhaps your narrative. I'm actually stating that when the dynamic between manager and player isn't right then bad things can happen.

I think @Bedfordspurs said it above. It's about belief in the manager who needs to get the players onside. When that player believes in their manager, then great things can happen. I genuinely don't think Kane believed in most of the post-Poch systems even though they were clearly accommodating him more than others. I reckon Harry hated the Conte rope-a-dope first halves. The difference between him versus Moura and Sonny was that he knew what he should be doing to lead the line. He just didn't believe it is how we should be playing. I think Harry was perhaps more into Jose but hated that massive chasm between the deep midfield and himself and Sonny. Of course we will never know how Ange would have accommodated a more mature Kane in his setup. On the surface, it appeared that Ange wanted 10 outfield workaholics. Ange clearly moulded an important role for Solanke, in a way that Johnson and Son got the lion's share of goals. I'm not sure that could have been the case with Harry.

I do agree with you on Harry checking out to a point, but I don't think it was managers, it was on the club and the refusal of the club to back the manager.
Eventually he was going for personal records rather than what was best for the team.
Not right in my book, but difficult blame him.

 

[Baleforce]

Re: Chris Cowlin
Like the bloke, was greatful for the stadium updates and have stuck with him since.
Has some good guests on his chats.
Like most people he can be annoying but give credit where it's due, to follow this club through thin and thin for years all over the world takes some doing.

Thin and thin?

It’s been our most successful period ever.

I do agree with you on Harry checking out to a point, but I don't think it was managers, it was on the club and the refusal of the club to back the manager.
Eventually he was going for personal records rather than what was best for the team.
Not right in my book, but difficult blame him.

Then he walked away from one of the biggest personal records there is.

 

[P.D.]

I avoid all of that, I watch games, and keep an eye on this place.

That’s it.

I've started listening to quite a few spurs and football podcasts but otherwise I'm the same. I don't watch much of other teams anymore either.

 

[monkeybarry]

Been hearing talk from some fans not keen on De Zerbi of his Brighton team getting “found out” in his 2nd season, but I don’t think that tells the story, he lost Caicedo, McAllister and Sanchez from the team he took to 6th place, then Trossard the next Jan. That’s going to impact your team!

I'll start with him finding our team

 

[P.D.]

Yeah, it’s ironic that (aside from Danny Kelly) the 2 best regulars on VFTL have been a Eccleshare and Pitt-Brooke. Maw is okay imho,

I quite like Harris - good podcast in general.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Modern players do what the coaches ask almost to the letter (too much again imo)

Agree and disagree, football is still very much a fluid game where scenarios arise where players need to use their own brains and intuition of the game to exceed.

The issue at Spurs is 100% in that area IMO, despite the "leadership" group none of them have a natural flair or feel for the game to show that level of responsibility or intuition. The only one that looks anywhere near that kind of player who has a decent footballing IQ is Gray

Coaches can drill into players things he wants them to do in certain moments and situations, its still down to the player to realise and know when he is in those situations in the heat of a game.

There is still space for freedom of thought, we are terrible at it

 

[Aldo]

I was in Moscow in 2018 for Croatia. Southgate was a prick. He allowed Maguire to pull Ashley Young inside marking his man leaving Dele to manage the entire left side. Maguire and Stones were both free all of the time. Neither marked a player. That left Hendo running around like a mad man and to be fair to Lingard he worked hard as well. Raheem was fantastic in that first half against Croatia. But for very weak refereeing, we would have had them on yellows if not down to 10. They just couldn't have handled our direct running.

Then the second half happened. Modric spotted what I'm talking about and ran the show. He could see that Dele was playing as a second wing back and just kept the ball inside as they overloaded us.

One of the worst manager performances I've ever seen. Up there with what happened in the Euros a couple of years later. I still think we would have lost to France but we could have easily been in a WC final.

So when it’s a negative it’s the managers fault (Southgate) but when something good happens it was down to their player (Modric). Why couldn’t our players have seen and corrected what you say Modric spotted? Why do you put it all on Southgate?