Richarlison

[Bishop]

No I am comparing Richy to the squad who hasn't delivered figures he has over a history of time, not just Savio, my point on Savio is you defend him against even those in his position which his stats don't stack up. Basically you treat the two differently.

You 100% deflected on people claiming the fee was too high by making points about Levy and the value only being too high if they don't perform. I suspect someone who feels we over paid doesn't make that effort

You keep talking about stats and I don't get why in reference to me. I don't criticise Richy due to stats. I'm not a stats guy, I criticise Richy for his performances and low ability.

You're misrepresenting my views on the fee. I literally said on here before we signed him he was expensive and a gamble because we would be trying to get the pre Emirates Marketing Project version of Savio, but I also said you have to pay what is asked if you want the player.

I'm not particularly fussed about the fees paid, it's kind not really the point. Again look through my posts and you won't see me harking on about how much we paid for player A, or how amazing it was to only pay X for player Z. That's just not my angle, you might be really concerned about fees but I'm not.

I'm much more interested in keeping the squad fresh and moving players in and out at the appropriate time. Sometimes that means you might over pay or sell for a lower amount (my actual argument re Levy).

Whether that player turns out to be value for money is something determined in the long term not the day you signed them.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

You keep talking about stats and I don't get why in reference to me. I don't criticise Richy due to stats. I'm not a stats guy, I criticise Richy for his performances and low ability.

Ok then I am wrong, I saw you mentioned his stats a couple of times, once a couple of posts before and I wrongly assumed that they meant something because you mentioned them to detrimental effect when discussing Richy.

You're misrepresenting my views on the fee. I literally said on here before we signed him he was expensive and a gamble because we would be trying to get the pre Emirates Marketing Project version of Savio, but I also said you have to pay what is asked if you want the player.

I'm not particularly fussed about the fees paid, it's kind not really the point. Again look through my posts and you won't see me harking on about how much we paid for player A, or how amazing it was to only pay X for player Z. That's just not my angle, you might be really concerned about fees but I'm not.

I don't think I am, someone said we overpaid for Savio and you jumped on them and then also made a detrimental comment about fans and Levy and some BS about being indoctrinated etc, thats not that same as you also thinking we overpaid for him, that comes over as agreeing.

I am not concerned about the fees, there is a massive difference between concern and reflecting on whats spent as overpaying for people.

I'm much more interested in keeping the squad fresh and moving players in and out at the appropriate time. Sometimes that means you might over pay or sell for a lower amount (my actual argument re Levy).

Whether that player turns out to be value for money is something determined in the long term not the day you signed them.

There is also a need to reflect on the squad build and take into account what was spent on a select number of players whilst then, in RDZ own admission, not being able to do any more work because of lack of funds. Seeing how short we are in areas hardly endorses the ides that over paying is the only route to a better fresher squad that some are trying to make out

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I like this explanation but find it less than holistic. This sort of toing and froing is very standard for the football business but most players in this scenario don't go running off to social media. There is also the balanced side that Richi was also fudging us around all summer as well. You have a market place with a dearth of strikers and you have a club and player hedging their bets. Richi is clearly waiting to see where in the Spurs pecking order he ends up once the squad rebuild is in place. Also, what offers come in. Spurs are waiting to see whether they can land other players or even get bids for other existing players. I think both parties know that Richi isn't our football saviour for the next chapter.

The part I disagree is the throwing Richi under the bus. I think our manager was just being honest on one hand but also setting standards on the other. He wants players to be angry if they are not in the team but also 100% committed to the project (his words). Of course he was laying down a challenge to his players. It wasn't personal to Richi at all. I think a club and manager has to either close ranks and say pretty much nothing about player transactions publicly or do the opposite. Our club and manager seem comfortable talking through these things. Let's see over time whether that works.

The other massive part is that this entire Richi saga is exacerbated by the start to our season. It would be closer to "nothing to see here" had we got off to a flyer in the league.

Agreed. I think I understand what Steff is saying, in that you have to play the hand you are dealt, and with Richy the right play was to offer more clarity and be decisive on his behalf to not let this situation spiral. But I just cannot wrap my head around the idea that we messed him around all summer without also acknowledging that he was changing his mind constantly.

I think it’s reasonable for the club to both want to assess their options, and to try and convince an asset to buy into the new project. Especially when, as you say, there is a dearth of quality strikers available and Lankshear wants to go for regular football. Again it just feels like because Richy is Richy, we have to make this special accommodation which might actually put us in a weaker position in the market just because we think he might emotionally flip out and fall below the standards expected, and which every other player seemed able to follow.

I just don’t fully understand why the club would ever expect there’s a chance that a player might act out in the way Richy did. They would have a minimum expectation of standards, and if there’s a chance they think a player might fall below them then I think it’s even more important enforce those standards for the sake of everybody else. If Richy had given his full commitment at the start of the summer I would though understand his hurt and anger at being traded in part exchange. But that doesn’t seem like it is what happened.

 

[Muttley]

Agreed. I think I understand what Steff is saying, in that you have to play the hand you are dealt, and with Richy the right play was to offer more clarity and be decisive on his behalf to not let this situation spiral. But I just cannot wrap my head around the idea that we messed him around all summer without also acknowledging that he was changing his mind constantly.

I think it’s reasonable for the club to both want to assess their options, and to try and convince an asset to buy into the new project. Especially when, as you say, there is a dearth of quality strikers available and Lankshear wants to go for regular football. Again it just feels like because Richy is Richy, we have to make this special accommodation which might actually put us in a weaker position in the market just because we think he might emotionally flip out and fall below the standards expected, and which every other player seemed able to follow.

I just don’t fully understand why the club would ever expect there’s a chance that a player might act out in the way Richy did. They would have a minimum expectation of standards, and if there’s a chance they think a player might fall below them then I think it’s even more important enforce those standards for the sake of everybody else. If Richy had given his full commitment at the start of the summer I would though understand his hurt and anger at being traded in part exchange. But that doesn’t seem like it is what happened.

Yeah, it's the pieces that we're not exposed to that are probably the most important pieces. It is strongly implied that Richi upset more than his manager and that guys like Vinai, Lange and and the more senior guys took a stance on the things the player said or did. I have a feeling Richi didn't see that part coming. It's also speculative whether he may have got a different reaction under the previous regime at Spurs.

It definitely takes 2 to tango.

When Tel gets his hatrick at OT, all will be well with the world again

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Yeah, it's the pieces that we're not exposed to that are probably the most important pieces. It is strongly implied that Richi upset more than his manager and that guys like Vinai, Lange and and the more senior guys took a stance on the things the player said or did. I have a feeling Richi didn't see that part coming. It's also speculative whether he may have got a different reaction under the previous regime at Spurs.

It definitely takes 2 to tango.

When Tel gets his hatrick at OT, all will be well with the world again

I do think a big part of the explanation here is the organisational change. We had done things a certain way before, so I can see why it might be surprising for a player to learn that we will not do things that way anymore, and are serious about the things we ask for in respect of commitment.

Same way I think part of City’s predicament is not truly believing that the rules would be seriously enforced, or that there would always be loopholes. The game changed from a regulatory sense and the surprise is that the rules actually have teeth.

 

[Bishop]

Ok then I am wrong, I saw you mentioned his stats a couple of times, once a couple of posts before and I wrongly assumed that they meant something because you mentioned them to detrimental effect when discussing Richy.

Regarding the stats I was replying to someone who mentioned his stats first. If you read the context of the conversation you will see I didn't actually bring them up, I was just refuting the strength of them. Look back at my post, the main meat had no reference to stats, the stat line was a quick response to someone who used the stats to support him.

I don't think I am, someone said we overpaid for Savio and you jumped on them and then also made a detrimental comment about fans and Levy and some BS about being indoctrinated etc, thats not that same as you also thinking we overpaid for him, that comes over as agreeing.

You're mixing up two separate points. Calling out a general mindset against paying high fees is a debate about overall club strategy, not an agreement that Savio specifically was worth that exact price. My comment was about the principle, not the player. Can you understand the difference? Especially when I literally said and you may have missed it as it seems you have that I thought he was over priced at £75m

I am not concerned about the fees, there is a massive difference between concern and reflecting on whats spent as overpaying for people.



There is also a need to reflect on the squad build and take into account what was spent on a select number of players whilst then, in RDZ own admission, not being able to do any more work because of lack of funds. Seeing how short we are in areas hardly endorses the ides that over paying is the only route to a better fresher squad that some are trying to make out

But who has said overpaying is the way to go? Sometimes it might be and sometimes it might not. It's going to be situational and based on judgement. How you determine if there was actually an over payment is based on the performances of the player after the fact. It's impossible really to determine beforehand. A perfect example would be Bissouma. When we signed everyone lauded how good a deal it was to get him for just £25m, but in thrvsony long having played out his contract we can't even say he met that considerably lower than market price fee we paid for him.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

You're mixing up two separate points. Calling out a general mindset against paying high fees is a debate about overall club strategy, not an agreement that Savio specifically was worth that exact price. My comment was about the principle, not the player. Can you understand the difference? Especially when I literally said and you may have missed it as it seems you have that I thought he was over priced at £75m

Ok well it was in direct reply to someone specifically stating about overpaying for Savio, so again it appeared to be a defence of the fee, otherwise I suppose most would go "yeh you know, it is, but lets see"

Yes you made snide digs at fans about being scared for paying high fees (despite it being BS) but that was a separate point

But who has said overpaying is the way to go? Sometimes it might be and sometimes it might not. It's going to be situational and based on judgement. How you determine if there was actually an over payment is based on the performances of the player after the fact. It's impossible really to determine beforehand. A perfect example would be Bissouma. When we signed everyone lauded how good a deal it was to get him for just £25m, but in thrvsony long having played out his contract we can't even say he met that considerably lower than market price fee we paid for him.

Plenty, there were weeks and weeks about it, especially the term that it now made us a serious club (it doesn't BTW).

Anyway this has the ability to go in circles and I can't really be bothered

 

[Baleforce]

So after some great conversations about Richi to date, looks like our media are moving onto the next chapter of the saga

Tottenham reach a compromise with Richarlison after near-legal battle in the summer

The Tottenham hierarchy and Richarlison's representatives have come to an understanding following their standoff during the summer window.

www.spurs-web.com

Will we now see more and more if these types of stories as the Jan window get ever closer?

If results don’t pick up we might see stories about him coming back into the squad in January too.

 

[Bishop]

Ok well it was in direct reply to someone specifically stating about overpaying for Savio, so again it appeared to be a defence of the fee, otherwise I suppose most would go "yeh you know, it is, but lets see"

Yes you made snide digs at fans about being scared for paying high fees (despite it being BS) but that was a separate point



Plenty, there were weeks and weeks about it, especially the term that it now made us a serious club (it doesn't BTW).

Anyway this has the ability to go in circles and I can't really be bothered

Bro you can think I should respond in a particular to suit your narrative but I responded in my way and yes I was snide because I do feel we as a club had become institutionalised into think Levy's way was the only way. But again that does not mean that I personally thought Savio was good value for money at £75m the day we bought him, I think he is a good player in a specific circumstance (that we seemingly don't want to use him in) but over priced.

The second part of your post seems rather general and directed at me but not at anything I've ever said. I've made no claim that we are now a serious club. I actually said our actions this summer were those of desperation.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Bro you can think I should respond in a particular to suit your narrative but I responded in my way and yes I was snide because I do feel we as a club had become institutionalised into think Levy's way was the only way. But again that does not mean that I personally thought Savio was good value for money at £75m the day we bought him, I think he is a good player in a specific circumstance (that we seemingly don't want to use him in) but over priced.

Not at all, I can only reply to posts I see and read. I don't care if you agree with me or not, I will call what I see as inconsistency in arguments though. If I am wrong about it, I always hold my hands up on it, but frankly I have seen inconsistency how you grade players, its not a big deal and I certainly and not looking for people to respond to suit my narrative, fcuk me I am not that insecure

The second part of your post seems rather general and directed at me but not at anything I've ever said. I've made no claim that we are now a serious club. I actually said our actions this summer were those of desperation.

Are you reading what you initially wrote? "who has said anyone has overpaid" I went on to say generically others have and that they claimed we are a serious club (they did) I never said it was you, I was answering your direct question............Jeez lad