Politics, politics, politics

[SpurMeUp]

Do you only vote on/care about things 'that directly affect you'?

Generally yes.

Oh Really? They have youth unemployment far FAR worse than ours. Many have been leaving their countries to go and find work in droves across Europe, especuially Germany and the UK.
This idea that they are 'doing a lot better' is a myth. Many Italians and Greeks would love to leave the Euro, get back their old currencies, devalue them and trade their way out of their predicament, but alas one-size-fits-all is the way and it's not working for them...

Greeks leaving Greece and Italians leaving Itally has been going on well before the EU. Look at the number of Italians and Greeks in the USA. If anything it is far better now than it was 100 years ago in these nations. Far more oppotunity now. That is the truth of it, but there you go, you will believe what you wish to.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1072159882906877953

 

[glorygloryeze]

Generally yes.

Fair enough; many vote on wider things and general principle, but each to their own. I'd love to know how you'd speak to any who voted for Brexit whose live HAVE been directly effected negatively by UK's membership over the years

Greeks leaving Greece and Italians leaving Itally has been going on well before the EU. Look at the number of Italians and Greeks in the USA. If anything it is far better now than it was 100 years ago in these nations. Far more oppotunity now. That is the truth of it, but there you go, you will believe what you wish to.

"Far more opportunity now"? Really? How do you quantify this? And if so, why do they have such high levels of unemployment and why are their economies doing so badly? Sounds like you are trying to whitewash their current economic predicaments...

 

[r-u-s-x]

I'd love to know how 'EU one size' has worked for Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece, all of whom have very bad economies right now and youth unemployment that is far worse than the UK...but yeah perhaps you would be wasting your virtual breath

Italy are a founding member of the EU so comparing pre 1980 is a bit odd.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=GR-ES-PT-BG-RO-PL

Youth unemployment is due to Government policy not EU policy - unless you want the EU to interfere with national politics? Blaming the EU for national problems is what got us in to this mess in the first place.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Italy are a founding member of the EU so comparing pre 1980 is a bit odd.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=GR-ES-PT-BG-RO-PL

Youth unemployment is due to Government policy not EU policy - unless you want the EU to interfere with national politics? Blaming the EU for national problems is what got us in to this mess in the first place.

Funny then that a newly voted in Italian national government wants to make changes to its Economic policy to change course and said Financial/budgetary policy is thrown out by the EU....

 

[SpurMeUp]

We are one of the biggest net contributors to the EU so of course we 'get back some things'.
My point has always been that the EU has become a centralising juggernaught working towards a Superstate. i don't want the UK being par of that non-democratic process and i don't think the benefits outweigh the democratic risks, particularly as life can exist outside the EU.
You think life will be hell outside it. I don't.

There are Federalists - people that want a united states of europe - but they are far outweighed by people like you and me, who wouldn't want it, and see that its an impossibility. So any talk about Superstate is Projct Fear imo. Its not based on anything that is going to happen, but spin to make people fear the EU.

It's not that life will be "hell" it is that it is a backward step for the UK. For example, the EU Med Agency, which decides on what drugs are safe, was based in London. Which makes sense becuase the UK has a massive pharma industry. We export lots of drugs all over the world. There are only 2 major drugs standards in the world now - the US and the EU. They set the benchmarks and standards. Maybe in the future China will have its say too (and India, Russia, Brazil who have big populations but are not that developed). For now the EU is particularly important in setting the standards.

These standards are as important as trade agreements. They control what is sold, and what is not. For UK pharmaceuticals, having the agency that sets the rules on their door step was an undoubted advantage. Communication, understanding, lobbying, insight are all that much easier. And the UK has a seat at the table when laws are passed. In the future EU laws will still be the standard that companies work to. But these companies won't be able to call on our government to represent them as French pharam companies will. That will put us at a disadvantage.

This is just one example. The complex truth is the EU has helped the UK, and leaving doesn't really bring any tangible benifits. That is the reason Brexit is a brickshow - because there isn't an exit agrangement where we come out winning.

 

[the dza]

...and we have opted to leave it based on it's current direction...(or at least the electorate have...)

Indeed. But if we are arguing against staying via a 2nd referendum, or arguing against a Norway option because it is still too close to the EU, and the only thing that apparently satisfies 'leave' is a WTO Brexit (which wasn't on the ballot paper), then there is no point conflating the Euro and the EU (because we were never in the Euro) and no point in complaining about the direction of travel, because as a nation we dictated much of it.

In truth, the deal we have (or had) with the EU is a middle of the road one, opting out of certain parts, joining with others. The electorate decided to leave, but they did not vote to throw the whole lot in the bin regardless of the consequences. WTO Brexit was not on the ballot paper. The faction that wants it should be brave enough to go back to the people and specifically tell them that's what they want and ask them to vote for it. They don't want to do this because they know that WTO Brexit in a referendum against Remain will lose.

 

[glorygloryeze]

There are Federalists - people that want a united states of europe - but they are far outweighed by people like you and me, who wouldn't want it, and see that its an impossibility. So any talk about Superstate is Projct Fear imo. Its not based on anything that is going to happen, but spin to make people fear the EU.

It's not that life will be "hell" it is that it is a backward step for the UK. For example, the EU Med Agency, which decides on what drugs are safe, was based in London. Which makes sense becuase the UK has a massive pharma industry. We export lots of drugs all over the world. There are only 2 major drugs standards in the world now - the US and the EU. They set the benchmarks and standards. Maybe in the future China will have its say too (and India, Russia, Brazil who have big populations but are not that developed). For now the EU is particularly important in setting the standards.

These standards are as important as trade agreements. They control what is sold, and what is not. For UK pharmaceuticals, having the agency that sets the rules on their door step was an undoubted advantage. Communication, understanding, lobbying, insight are all that much easier. And the UK has a seat at the table when laws are passed. In the future EU laws will still be the standard that companies work to. But these companies won't be able to call on our government to represent them as French pharam companies will. That will put us at a disadvantage.

This is just one example. The complex truth is the EU has helped the UK, and leaving doesn't really bring any tangible benifits. That is the reason Brexit is a brickshow - because there isn't an exit agrangement where we come out winning.

If talk of an EU Superstate is project fear, then talk of a brickshow post brexit is also project fear.

The EU med agency could easily have been the UK med agency if at the time we were not in the EU; as you say the UK has a massive Pharma industry. Standards would be set regardless of being in or out of the EU. In fact i'd say the UK sets the benchmark for standards as much as the EU does.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Funny then that a newly voted in Italian national government wants to make changes to its Economic policy to change course and said Financial/budgetary policy is thrown out by the EU....

Is that the one that goes against explicit commitments the previous government made when they approached the EU for help?

 

[SpurMeUp]

If talk of an EU Superstate is project fear, then talk of a brickshow post brexit is also project fear.

We're in that brickshow now. In case you havn't noticed we have no withdrawl agreement, our currency is lower as a result (meaning things cost us more in the shops and abroad), and we have no clear direction. That's not proect fear, that's picking up a newspaper today.

The EU med agency could easily have been the UK med agency if at the time we were not in the EU; as you say the UK has a massive Pharma industry. Standards would be set regardless of being in or out of the EU. In fact i'd say the UK sets the benchmark for standards as much as the EU does.

Yes we will have to have our own Meds Agency (along with 10s of others like aviation, beefed up customs etc). The costs of setting these up and the time it will take for them to function well - I hate to think. Decades and billlions probably. And then what? Well it won't matter what the UK Med Agency says, it will be the EU and US Agencies that dictate what is sold globally.

Complex truth.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Indeed. But if we are arguing against staying via a 2nd referendum, or arguing against a Norway option because it is still too close to the EU, and the only thing that apparently satisfies 'leave' is a WTO Brexit (which wasn't on the ballot paper), then there is no point conflating the Euro and the EU (because we were never in the Euro) and no point in complaining about the direction of travel, because as a nation we dictated much of it.

In truth, the deal we have (or had) with the EU is a middle of the road one, opting out of certain parts, joining with others. The electorate decided to leave, but they did not vote to throw the whole lot in the bin regardless of the consequences. WTO Brexit was not on the ballot paper. The faction that wants it should be brave enough to go back to the people and specifically tell them that's what they want and ask them to vote for it. They don't want to do this because they know that WTO Brexit in a referendum against Remain will lose.

Much of the direction of the EU is set by bureaucrats both based in the EU and originally from here; Brexit was a rejection of the direction of travel in the EU AND also a reminder to those here who are federalists to say: "wait a minute, you have to ask us when building the EU and by the way we want out now given the current direction you are setting."

In fact some of the key federalists are and have been disgraceful in their disregard for the electorate and the Brexit vote: Blair, Campbell, Umunna, Soubry, Grieve.
I think people underestimate how much pro-Bexit feeling there is outside of Parliament and the big Metropolitan areas (and i live in very much a remain area btw, but when i step outside it the feeling is very tangible and i don't feel so alone haha)

 

[glorygloryeze]

Is that the one that goes against explicit commitments the previous government made when they approached the EU for help?

You mean commitments that don't work for the country anymore and that the new government was voted in to try and change/change tack?
You know, like how an independent democracy should work?
In fact, should the Italians bother voting at all?

 

[the dza]

Much of the direction of the EU is set by bureaucrats both based in the EU and originally from here; Brexit was a rejection of the direction of travel in the EU AND also a reminder to those here who are federalists to say: "wait a minute, you have to ask us when building the EU and by the way we want out now given the current direction you are setting."

In fact some of the key federalists are and have been disgraceful in their disregard for the electorate and the Brexit vote: Blair, Campbell, Umunna, Soubry, Grieve.
I think people underestimate how much pro-Bexit feeling there is outside of Parliament and the big Metropolitan areas (and i live in very much a remain area btw, but when i step outside it the feeling is very tangible and i don't feel so alone haha)

A vote against federalism is not a vote for a WTO Brexit and the subsequent consequences. If Leave means WTO, then the leavers should be brave enough to put that exact question to the people and make sure that's what we want as a country. I don't think that it is. I think this hardcore leave faction knows it, which is why they don't want to ask the question, and hide behind the vague notion of leave that was put forward in the first referendum, rather than specifically leaving and going to WTO rules.

 

[glorygloryeze]

We're in that brickshow now. In case you havn't noticed we have no withdrawl agreement, our currency is lower as a result (meaning things cost us more in the shops and abroad), and we have no clear direction. That's not proect fear, that's picking up a newspaper today.

Yes, hopefully temporarily and we leave the EU.

Yes we will have to have our own Meds Agency (along with 10s of others like aviation, beefed up customs etc). The costs of setting these up and the time it will take for them to function well - I hate to think. Decades and billlions probably. And then what? Well it won't matter what the UK Med Agency says, it will be the EU and US Agencies that dictate what is sold globally.

Complex truth.

Yeah, perhaps we should merge all our agencies with European or US ones after all they are always going to dictate everything globally

 

[Gutter Boy]

I think May has got to resign tonight and install Hunt or Javid as interim leader till April with immediate effect. They'd then have 10 days to renegotiate before a pre-xmas vote

I still think it will have to be Withdrawal Agreement minus backstop, but with fixed-term membership of EFTA until Canada is agreed

 

[r-u-s-x]

You mean commitments that don't work for the country anymore and that the new government was voted in to try and change/change tack?
You know, like how an independent democracy should work?
In fact, should the Italians bother voting at all?

There are consequences to going back on previous international deals, the country also voted in the previous government and are bound by their decisions.

- national debt doesn't work for us anymore, the people have spoken.

 

[SpurMeUp]

s (and i live in very much a remain area btw, but when i step outside it the feeling is very tangible and i don't feel so alone haha)

Don't worry you are definitely not alone. And giving Brexit as good a defence as you can. I meet quite a few Brexiteers out and about, and many think I'm one of them. We get along, and I share their overeaching ethics. I like my naiton, am patriotic, like English people, our parliment etc. The reason there aren't a lot of people in here arguing with you, is that when you take time to strip it back, Brexit really doesn't offer anything, and though we might hate to say it, the EU does give us a fair bit.

That 3 years in, no one has produced a post-Brexit vision speaks volumes. Where are UKIP setting out how the UK will prosper? Where is Boris outlining his Brexit manifesto? They are conspicuous by their absense. And they are absenst because Brexit doesn't actually give us a thing. It takes stuff away. 'Sovrignity' is a misnomer if you care to pull apart what it is exactly. Trade - we have the best free trade setup now. Maybe the UK could be more agile in trade, and make laws to suit UK companies, but this is far outweighed by the EU bargaining power making trade deals (550m vs 50m consumers pulls weight in trade negotiations).

So you're not alone in your sentiments. I even share them broadly, but Brexit is not the answer, we need to look closer to home to achieve what it is people want.

 

[the dza]

I think May has got to resign tonight and install Hunt or Javid as interim leader till April with immediate effect. They'd then have 10 days to renegotiate before a pre-xmas vote

I still think it will have to be Withdrawal Agreement minus backstop, but with fixed-term membership of EFTA until Canada is agreed

This would at least be a more sensible approach, even for people who disagree with the ultimate destination. I'd probably say that at the end of the EFTA term, there should be a further referendum that votes on the Canada style deal or remain in the EFTA arrangement indefinitely.

 

[glorygloryeze]

A vote against federalism is not a vote for a WTO Brexit and the subsequent consequences. If Leave means WTO, then the leavers should be brave enough to put that exact question to the people and make sure that's what we want as a country. I don't think that it is. I think this hardcore leave faction knows it, which is why they don't want to ask the question, and hide behind the vague notion of leave that was put forward in the first referendum, rather than specifically leaving and going to WTO rules.

Perhaps. I want to leave and would accept WTO rules to do in the event of a 'no deal'. I suspect given events many more would.
Our political establishment is overwhelmingly remain though so this option would be painted as a "doomesday" scenario before it was presented to the public sadly.
WTO should have been planned for from the off and then a deal (no doubt a bit worse than current but still not "doomesday") would likely have been negotiated as they would have taken us seriously and we would have acted seriously.

Oh well

 

[Gutter Boy]

This would at least be a more sensible approach, even for people who disagree with the ultimate destination. I'd probably say that at the end of the EFTA term, there should be a further referendum that votes on the Canada style deal or remain in the EFTA arrangement indefinitely.

There would be no impetus to negotiate if it was only going to be an option. It would actually probably have to be EFTA without FoM as the temporary arrangement, to make it unpalatable enough to get the EU back to table.