• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Politics, politics, politics

Don't worry you are definitely not alone. And giving Brexit as good a defence as you can. I meet quite a few Brexiteers out and about, and many think I'm one of them. We get along, and I share their overeaching ethics. I like my naiton, am patriotic, like English people, our parliment etc. The reason there aren't a lot of people in here arguing with you, is that when you take time to strip it back, Brexit really doesn't offer anything, and though we might hate to say it, the EU does give us a fair bit.

That 3 years in, no one has produced a post-Brexit vision speaks volumes. Where are UKIP setting out how the UK will prosper? Where is Boris outlining his Brexit manifesto? They are conspicuous by their absense. And they are absenst because Brexit doesn't actually give us a thing. It takes stuff away. But 'sovrignity' is a misnomer if you care to pull apart what it is exactly. Trade - we have the best free trade setup now. Maybe the UK could be more agile in trade, and make laws to suit UK companies, but this is far outweighed by the EU bargaining power making trade deals (550m vs 50m consumers pulls weight in trade negotiations).

So you're not alone in your sentiments. I even share them broadly, but Brexit is not the answer, we need to look closer to home to achieve what it is people want.

Fair points.
I think we need to retreat and look inwardly to achieve what is needed. Staying will be a straightjacklet that will restrict such introspection; Italy's new government being a case in point to highlight such restrictions
 
There are consequences to going back on previous international deals, the country also voted in the previous government and are bound by their decisions.

- national debt doesn't work for us anymore, the people have spoken.

All proof that the straightjacket of the EU is something we should get out of now before it's too late. For Italy it has narrowed their political and Economic policy choice spectrum
 
Yeah, perhaps we should merge all our agencies with European or US ones after all they are always going to dictate everything globally:rolleyes:

It's basically the UK being a rule taker rather than maker. The EU and US will control (regulate) what is sold globally and we'll get no say. Whereas now, we do. In fact the EU Meds Agency that determines what passes is in the UK.

We might spend tax payers money on a new UK agency, but what is it going to do when drugs companies will look to US and EU regulators for approval and guidance? What would be the point of creating a UK agency that creates more bureaucracy and cost to service 50m people?
 
Last edited:
Perhaps. I want to leave and would accept WTO rules to do in the event of a 'no deal'. I suspect given events many more would.
Our political establishment is overwhelmingly remain though so this option would be painted as a "doomesday" scenario before it was presented to the public sadly.
WTO should have been planned for from the off and then a deal (no doubt a bit worse than current but still not "doomesday") would likely have been negotiated as they would have taken us seriously and we would have acted seriously.

Oh well:(

Agree that those politicians who would be happy with a WTO deal should have prepared us for one. They could have, by getting rid of May after the last General Election. But they collectively sh1t their pants, nobody stepped forward to give us their hard brexit vision, all they offered was carping from the sidelines. They don't want to be held responsible, incase WTO consequences turn out to be more than 'project fear.' And they don't want to ask the people if that is what we want because they know that WTO Brexit commands a majority nowhere.

I don't actually want a 2nd referendum, but those who insist on hard brexit should be brave enough to call for one and ask us the specific question: WTO or Remain.
 
There would be no impetus to negotiate if it was only going to be an option. It would actually probably have to be EFTA without FoM as the temporary arrangement, to make it unpalatable enough to get the EU back to table.

Fair point, but if it comes down to the impetus to negotiate, then we have to see it from the EU side -- they have had no impetus to offer us anything other than a sh1t sandwich, knowing our Parliament doesn't really want us to leave, and knowing that other countries thinking about it can see the example we have set and will now probably say "no thanks."
 
WTO preparations means millions invested in new government bureaucracy, then millions in building new customs buildings and facilities, lorry parks, finding ways to invest into areas of likely job losses (say where car plants are) etc. And then if you reach a free trade deal, or if the government changes, all the millions spent on new cutoms buildings, training and recuitment is for nothing. Tear it all down again, make all the new cutoms officers redundant?

Easy to say - the government should have done this or that - the reality is far more complex.
 
Last edited:
The difficulties of a hard brexit are not being understated. These are hard cold facts that will become all to apparent in a few months.
And if this happens it will precipitate a breakup of the union. The polls show in NI a border poll in favour of a united Ireland in the case of hard brexit (I think May made a veiled reference to this in her speech today). Scotland will vote to leave and join the EU and the brexiters will get what they really want which is a new England nation state.
 
Last edited:
New vote

Leave (hard Brexit)
Stay.

Simple and like the original but now with minimal but clear explanation.

Although exactly what a hard Brexit would look like is far from clear. There should be a proposal from those campaigning. The ERG don't even have a manifesto. They just criticise what they don't like, which is easy...
 
There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside
500.jpg

David Davis
10 October 2016

The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want
140.jpg

Michael Gove
9 April 2016

Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards
140.jpg

John Redwood
July 17 2016

The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history
Liam Fox
20 July 2017
400.png



Within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU … The new trade agreements will come into force at the point of exit, but they will be fully negotiated
David Davis
14 July 2016
400.png



The UK is currently implementing a new customs declaration service, which will replace the existing HMRC customs system. This is a high-priority project within government and HMRC is on track to deliver by January 2019
govtcrest.png

Department for Exiting the EU
15 August 2017


I am confident that using the most up-to-date technology, we can get a non-visible border operational along the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland
David Davis
5 September 2017
400.png



Were they deluded or lying do you think?
 
Last edited:
Although exactly what a hard Brexit would look like is far from clear. There should be a proposal from those campaigning. The ERG don't even have a manifesto. They just criticise what they don't like, which is easy...

Can't for the life of me think of any political party in particular that this puts me in mind of...:D
 
Last edited:
Back