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Politics, politics, politics

This line of thinking doesnt really make sense to me.

I do understand it would be very typical of the Tories to do exactly that, but then we would vote in a party that opposes these methods, wouldnt we?

Labour would be up against that sort of practice straight away.

Its not like the EU is the only thing stopping the evil government from abusing us, the whole point of democracy is we can change the things we dont like.

Exactly.

One of the key points of Brexit is that by returning power to Westminster, we'll become more democratic. So in 2022 if we vote for a nationalisation and strong unions government, we'll actually get it
 
Do you honestly think anything will change? Why will people suddenly engage more? It’s not like the EU have been running much in the UK and there will be a sudden change as there was say in South Africa when democracy was opened up to all. Will be same old, but poorer with less to spend on UK infrastructure and public services.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Because there's accountability. If a government is going astray, they get wiped away at the next election and we take a different path. Because we are constrained by the permanent neo-liberal framework of the EU, all recent British governments have just shrugged their shoulders and said 'we can't do anything about it'
 
would you take a 5 -10% drop in salary in exchange for a reduction on workers rights, reduction on environmental rights and an increase in Multinationals power? Without the handbrake of the EU we will head towards the US way of things (this is the way we have been heading for decades)
fudge yes.
 
Really good news today is that the Pictish courts have referred the question of Article 50 revocability to the ECJ. That's much more important than swivel-eyed May's risible Poundland Churchill performance.
 
UKIP aiming to be 'radical, populist' party
  • 5 hours ago
UKIP should become a "radical, populist party" standing up for free speech against the "politically-correct thought police", says its leader.

Its "interim manifesto", unveiled on the eve of its conference, also urges a "clean exit" from the EU.

Leader Gerard Batten said the policies unveiled aimed to help "the people who form the backbone of Britain".

He is the fourth person to lead UKIP since Nigel Farage quit in the wake of the 2016 EU Referendum.

The party has also suffered a funding crisis and was saved from insolvency by public donations.

Under Mr Batten's leadership, membership has increased from a low of around 18,000 to approximately 24,000, according to UKIP, but critics have accused the party of becoming too right-wing.

BBC political correspondent Alex Forsyth said UKIP has allowed controversial online video bloggers to join and is considering whether to allow the former EDL leader Tommy Robinson to become a member.

Its interim manifesto includes sections on free speech, political correctness and Islamic extremism, as well as the NHS, defence, education and policing among others.

It urges a "complete and total withdrawal from the European Union", and says UKIP will keep fighting to make the UK an "independent, self-governing, sovereign state", regardless of any Brexit deal reached.

In it, Mr Batten says UKIP will "promote and defend our national and individual freedoms" adding: "We are determined to protect our freedom of speech and the right to speak our minds without fear of the politically correct thought-police knocking on our doors."

The manifesto covers a wide range of policy areas, from the NHS and transport to fisheries and small businesses, with policies including:

  • A limited points-based immigration system
  • NHS health cards for British citizens to prevent 'health tourism' & free parking at hospitals
  • An extra £2bn a year for adult social care & £500m a year for mental health
  • Abolition of stamp duty and inheritance tax
  • Introduction of new grammar schools
  • Scrapping the overseas aid budget
  • Scrapping guidelines on 'subjective' hate crimes
  • Scrapping the climate change act, stopping subsidies for wind turbines and solar voltaic arrays and seeking to rejuvenate the UK's coal industry
  • Scrapping the BBC licence fee in favour of voluntary subscription
  • Repealing hate speech guidelines, the Equality Act 2010 & shutting down the Equalities and Human Rights Commission
Mr Batten is due to address party members on Friday morning when the UKIP conference opens in Birmingham, as the party celebrates its 25th anniversary.

Unveiling its "interim manifesto", which he said would be "built on in the months and years to come", Mr Batten said: "These policies are aimed at helping the people who form the backbone of Britain: ordinary workers and taxpayers, the unemployed who would like to work, and small and medium-sized business owners.

"Its purpose is to make UKIP a populist party in the real meaning of the word - one whose policies are popular with voters."

UKIP saw its popularity collapse in the 2017 election after securing only 594,068 votes - down from 3,881,099 in 2015.

The party leadership has changed hands six times since the 2016 EU referendum, with Mr Farage returning temporarily when his successor Diane James quit after less than a month at the helm.

Paul Nuttall succeeded her in November 2016 but quit following the 2017 general election - and Steve Crowther became acting leader.

Henry Bolton was elected leader in September 2017 but was ousted following controversy over racist messages sent by his partner.

Mr Batten took over in February but has said he intends to resign after a year.

I like a lot of that, but where will the money come from to scrap inheritance tax and stamp duty, as good as it is to scrap those they need to find the money from somewhere.

If they let tommy robinson join then they would be a far right party instead of a right wing party. He is a piece of brick.

Not happy with their hatred of wind farms, and to many members are gay hating nutters. The was a period 5 years or so ago when Farage was making a play and getting some Asians involved with UKIP, it was an interesting party then, now it is going a bit like Trumps America.
 
What is May hoping to achieve with todays speech, we've know what the only viable options would be for three years.

The EU won't find a unicorn either.
 
UK Prime Minister Theresa May has said the EU must treat the UK with "respect" in Brexit negotiations.

In a statement at Downing Street she said for EU leaders to reject her plan with no alternative at this "late stage of negotiations" was "not acceptable".

A defiant Mrs May added: "I will not overturn the result of the referendum nor will I break up my country."

Mrs May's statement came after EU leaders said Chequers plan would not work, at a summit in Salzburg.

The prime minister said: "Throughout this process I have treated the EU with nothing but respect. The UK expects the same, a good relationship at the end of this process depends on it.

"At this late stage in the negotiations, it is not acceptable to simply reject the other side's proposals without a detailed explanation and counter proposals. So we now need to hear from the EU what the real issues are and what their alternative is so we can discuss them. Until we do, we cannot make progress."

She said the two sides were still "a long way apart" on two big issues: the post-Brexit economic relationship between the UK and EU, and the "backstop" for the Irish border, if there is a delay in implementing that relationship.

The two options being offered by the EU for the long-term relationship - for the UK to stay in the European Economic Area and customs union or a basic free trade agreement - were not acceptable, she added.

The first would "make a mockery of the referendum" she said, while the second would mean Northern Ireland would be "permanently separated economically from the rest of the UK by a border down the Irish Sea."

Mrs May said no UK prime minister would ever agree to that: "If the EU believe I will, they are making a fundamental mistake."

She added either would be a "bad deal" and repeated that "no deal is better than a bad deal".

She said the best outcome would be to leave with a deal and the UK had put forward a third way - her Chequers plan, which Donald Tusk had rejected on the grounds it would undermine the single market.

"He didn't explain how in any detail or make any counter proposal, so we are at an impasse," she said.

On the issue of the backstop, she stressed it would be unacceptable to keep Northern Ireland in the customs union, which would mean "breaking up our country".

The prime minister moved to reassure EU citizens living in the UK that, in the event no deal can be reached, "your rights will be protected": "You are our friends, our neighbours, our colleagues. We want you to stay."

And she stressed the government would do "everything in our power to prevent a return to a hard border" between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.

She added that "no-one wants a good deal more than me" but she would not overturn the referendum result or break up the UK.

"We need serious engagement on resolving the two big problems in the negotiations. We stand ready."

The UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March 2019.

Mrs May says her plan for the UK and EU to share a "common rulebook" for goods, but not services, is the only credible way to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

But it is opposed by some within her own party who argue it would compromise the UK's sovereignty. And it got a cool reception at this week's EU summit in Austria.

In a news conference, European Council President Donald Tusk said there were some "positive elements" in Mrs May's proposals, known as the Chequers plan.

But he said EU leaders had agreed that the proposals needed to be redrawn: "The suggested framework for economic co-operation will not work, not least because it is undermining the single market."

He followed it up by posting a photograph on Instagram of he and Mrs May looking at cakes with the caption: "A piece of cake, perhaps? Sorry, no cherries."

The EU has argued that the UK cannot "cherry-pick" elements from its rulebook.

Earlier Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab expressed doubt over how serious EU leaders were about the negotiations.

He told the BBC's Politics Live: "It did not feel like the reciprocation of the statesmanlike approach that she (Mrs May) has taken".




Brexit: Defiant words from PM may not be enough

Laura Kuenssberg

She didn't budge. And she was never going to.

After her embarrassment yesterday at the hands of EU leaders, with restive backbenchers at her back, Theresa May was never going to use this highly unusual appearance in Downing Street and dramatically reverse out of her position.

Simply, to back down less than 24 hours later would have looked weak.

And the prime minister has invested huge amounts of time, effort, and political capital into her Chequers plan.

Ministers never believed that it would be the precise form of the final agreement.

But Number 10 believed that in good faith, they had put something credible on the table for discussion.

She has already lost two cabinet ministers over the compromise, and endured weeks of attacks from different wings of her party.

So one, albeit, highly embarrassing diplomatic bust-up was not going to force her to back down.

Her anger was visible though today, explaining again why she believes the two familiar post-Brexit trade options, Norway and Canada, cannot, and will not work for the UK.

And she called for respect from the EU: "Throughout this process I have treated the EU with nothing but respect, the UK expects the same".

A stern tone, strong words.

And in going further on citizens' rights too, perhaps Mrs May has sought to take the high ground, in contrast to what some in the UK are seeing as the EU's poor behaviour yesterday.

But while there is no remote sign from the PM today that she is about to compromise, forces in the EU and in her own party are intent on forcing her to do so.

Her problem is that they want to push her in different directions.

Rhetoric doesn't change the fact that few of the players involved outside Number 10 believe that the suggestions the prime minister has put forward can be the ones that ultimately will win the day.
 
What is May hoping to achieve with todays speech, we've know what the only viable options would be for three years.

The EU won't find a unicorn either.

It's for domestic consumption only. She's banking on the ERG squad at conference being so incensed by the Instagram cake burn that they rally behind Tess and the union flag. Cavilling is inappropriate when we are At War with Dastardly Hun and Cowardly Frog. So she buys another few weeks. That's all anything she does is ever aimed at achieving.
 
It's for domestic consumption only. She's banking on the ERG squad at conference being so incensed by the Instagram cake burn that they rally behind Tess and the union flag. Cavilling is inappropriate when we are At War with Dastardly Hun and Cowardly Frog. So she buys another few weeks. That's all anything she does is ever aimed at achieving.

all I can think is that making no deal seem so likely she may get away with a climb down agreement later on
 
And of course she is swinging it so whatever comes next is the EU's fault and not hers.

she can try that, but seeing as the EU have already offered 5 reasonable options it's a weightless throw

all this stems from painting herself into a corner to start with

we are going to end up with a border between NI and the EU
 
They have offered 5 options that dont fit our criteria. Just as we have done similar for them. Its negotiation.

Or not, as at this point it seems to me they are just fudging her about until she folds and takes a terrible deal for us which leaves them tinkling themselves laughing.
 
she can try that, but seeing as the EU have already offered 5 reasonable options it's a weightless throw

all this stems from painting herself into a corner to start with

we are going to end up with a border between NI and the EU

The EU have really only offered one option - the punishment of Norway

Canada, which would be the best, is hindered by the need for either a land border in Ireland or the speeding up of a United Ireland

Chequers, which they've turned down, was actually one of the 5 on Barnier's PowerPoint - it's basically Ukraine. But was seemingly never really on offer
 
The EU have really only offered one option - the punishment of Norway

Canada, which would be the best, is hindered by the need for either a land border in Ireland or the speeding up of a United Ireland

Chequers, which they've turned down, was actually one of the 5 on Barnier's PowerPoint - it's basically Ukraine. But was seemingly never really on offer
Ukraine are under ECJ - that's against our red line we never wanted Ukraine unless we are after Ukraine+. Also seems like we would have to stay within EU laws in the majority. It is not Chequers
https://www.cer.eu/insights/ukraine-model-brexit-dissociation-just-association

"The three countries only have improved access to those sectors where their laws are aligned (‘approximated’) to European ones. If a dispute arises relating to regulatory approximation or to an interpretation of EU law, the arbitration panel that oversees the agreement must request a ruling from the European Court of Justice, whose verdicts are legally binding (known as a ‘preliminary reference’). Other than on such issues, the arbitrators oversee the agreement without any ECJ involvement.

-Ukraine, for example, will have to implement 80 to 90 per cent of the acquis communautaire (the body of EU law and regulations).
-Ukraine and the EU can freely trade goods (with the exception of some agricultural and metal exports) without additional testing, under a Conformity Assessment Agreement, so long as Ukraine obeys European technical standards.
-is also worth noting that the association countries are not in a customs union with the EU, so border checks are still required.1 Therefore, a comparable EU-UK association agreement would not solve the Irish border issue.
-Ukraine does not yet have deep access to most EU service sectors, and many are excluded completely. For instance, the EU and some individual member-states have put in place a total of 46 restrictions on Ukraine’s access to financial services markets. Such restrictions are in place because the joint EU-Ukraine Trade Committee has not certified sufficient progress on regulatory alignment.
-The association countries can participate in numerous EU agencies....Again, participation is contingent upon alignment with EU law in these areas."
 
Parliament

If the negotiations continue as is, then there will be no deal and a hard Brexit. Parliament can only vote on a government deal, but if there isn't one then what can they do?

Theresa May is like Del Boy in the hang-glider -- she's been bluffing all along and is gonna have to end up running off the cliff and see what happens.
 
This line of thinking doesnt really make sense to me.

I do understand it would be very typical of the Tories to do exactly that, but then we would vote in a party that opposes these methods, wouldnt we?

Labour would be up against that sort of practice straight away.

Its not like the EU is the only thing stopping the evil government from abusing us, the whole point of democracy is we can change the things we dont like.
UK voting history suggests otherwise.
And beside, who cares what the opposition says? The Tories don't.
You push legislation through piece by price over one or two parliamentary terms to normalise it. Easily done, especially with fixed term parliaments.
Change of Govt rarely leads to mass changes in legislation, that would be destabilising.
And besides, we will to "somewhere else" for identity, and we won't look East because we just left.
That only leaves North (possible if we can get labour In power) or West, which is most likely because many Brits still admire the positives of the US without an appreciation of the trade offs
 
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