Politics, politics, politics

[Rorschach]

Do you think the country could move away from globalisation and neo-liberalism within the EU? Because that's what Brexit was a rejection of. And they are pretty fundamental pillars of the EU.

Brexit was a vote for English nationalism.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Satisfies the referendum on a technical level "yay, we've left the EU!" while pretty much just keeping things as they are so we can move on with this sh1t.

Another referendum will be a nightmare imo and what hardcore remainers don't seem to even contemplate is that they could lose again, and then what? All other ways of leaving just seem like undeliverable sh1te, due to the country not being prepared (no-deal scenario), Irish border issues etc.

IMO, a coalition of Labour Remainers (bulk of the party) Tory Remainers (a good chunk of their party), SNP/Lib Dems/Green and even The DUP (yes, them) would get it through Parliament.

I appreciate another referendum is of course a risk, but IMHO itll be a remain slam-dunk.

Not because everyone is so pro EU either, I actually think the EU has done plenty to push people away.

But because our goverment has proven so comprehensively incompetent, we cant trust them to actually pull of a successful Brexit.

I think in the main, people will vote for the devil they know (and/or love).

 

[Grays_1890]

Easy to say what you wouldn't do. That's what Parliment just did. What is it you would do?

It's another folly of Brexit. It was sold as a postive, a Yes vote. Sold as a forward thinking vote. When in fact it has always been a negative, what we don't like. We don'e like those lot over there deciding our laws and coming and going as they please. But no one has ever put forward a viable vision for post Brexit - something positive - and its telling that you can't outline what you would have taken to the EU as your exit, just what you wouldn't have taken. It's appriorate, I'll give you that!

Loads of negatives to being in the EU, its just that as we have been in for so long they are new viewed as negatives in the same way as its a better the devil you know view.

Leave was like any vote for me, I voted for it and its down to politicians to see that through and work how that looks not me the same as when I vote in the generals, I don't then want to run the NHS or the police force.

 

[the dza]

I appreciate another referendum is of course a risk, but IMHO itll be a remain slam-dunk.

Not because everyone is so pro EU either, I actually think the EU has done plenty to push people away.

But because our goverment has proven so comprehensively incompetent, we cant trust them to actually pull of a successful Brexit.

I think in the main, people will vote for the devil they know (and/or love).

I think you are right, Remain would probably win. But even with everything, Remain polls somewhere in the mid 50s. Things can change from there, especially with a campaign based on "The Establishment have betrayed you, are you going to stand for that?" etc. There's a danger another referendum throws petrol on the fire imo. It's my best guest that a lot of MPs will feel this way, but only a guess.

 

[P.D.]

Satisfies the referendum on a technical level "yay, we've left the EU!" while pretty much just keeping things as they are so we can move on with this sh1t.

Another referendum will be a nightmare imo and what hardcore remainers don't seem to even contemplate is that they could lose again, and then what? All other ways of leaving just seem like undeliverable sh1te, due to the country not being prepared (no-deal scenario), Irish border issues etc.

IMO, a coalition of Labour Remainers (bulk of the party) Tory Remainers (a good chunk of their party), SNP/Lib Dems/Green and even The DUP (yes, them) would get it through Parliament.

But we'd have the backstop, freedom of movement and have to accept most rules with no say - that's not exactly a positive. Norway don't want us in it anyway and have already said so.

Another referendum would be one of the most brutal things you'll ever see, imagine how vicious the next few months would be. I think I'd have to go on holiday for a while, the press, social medical news and everything else would be dominated by it and I'd imagine it would get pretty personal with multiple demonstrations and arrests.

 

[the dza]

But we'd have the backstop, freedom of movement and have to accept most rules with no say - that's not exactly a positive. Norway don't want us in it anyway and have already said so.

Another referendum would be one of the most brutal things you'll ever see, imagine how vicious the next few months would be. I think I'd have to go on holiday for a while, the press, social medical news and everything else would be dominated by it and I'd imagine it would get pretty personal with multiple demonstrations and arrests.

The backstop is only a problem for the right of the Tory Party who don't want a close relationship with the EU. Norway+ (Customs Union) means there is no backstop because the deal would be for the UK staying in a Customs Union. The right of the Tory Party won't vote for Norway+, but Parliament doesn't need them, they can be ignored frankly.

It's a worse deal than remaining in a lot of ways, but it's a compromise to technically satisfy the referendum and draw a line under it. Farage will make a lot of noise about it, the Tory right will, Ukip will get more votes again. These are all problems for the Tory Party, mainly (though Labour might also lose some votes to UKIP again). Which is why we've had May's red lines and why we are at the stage we are at.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Satisfies the referendum on a technical level "yay, we've left the EU!" while pretty much just keeping things as they are so we can move on with this sh1t.

Another referendum will be a nightmare imo and what hardcore remainers don't seem to even contemplate is that they could lose again, and then what? All other ways of leaving just seem like undeliverable sh1te, due to the country not being prepared (no-deal scenario), Irish border issues etc.

IMO, a coalition of Labour Remainers (bulk of the party) Tory Remainers (a good chunk of their party), SNP/Lib Dems/Green and even The DUP (yes, them) would get it through Parliament.

I think the vote would be to leave again - if the referendum is done correctly (transferable vote with achievable outcomes ) the there will be a remit. The achievable outcomes would include (where the mainland is not in a customs union ) a border on the irish sea with NI being in the customs union. If you are going to trust people a vote on the matter trust them to be honest.

 

[r-u-s-x]

But we'd have the backstop, freedom of movement and have to accept most rules with no say - that's not exactly a positive. Norway don't want us in it anyway and have already said so.

Another referendum would be one of the most brutal things you'll ever see, imagine how vicious the next few months would be. I think I'd have to go on holiday for a while, the press, social medical news and everything else would be dominated by it and I'd imagine it would get pretty personal with multiple demonstrations and arrests.

there would be no backstop as the customs union would be the final outcome.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think you are right, Remain would probably win. But even with everything, Remain polls somewhere in the mid 50s. Things can change from there, especially with a campaign based on "The Establishment have betrayed you, are you going to stand for that?" etc. There's a danger another referendum throws petrol on the fire imo. It's my best guest that a lot of MPs will feel this way, but only a guess.

I would hope (yes, I know...) that lessons would be learned from last time, and either side will actually spell out a few truths.

People can vote with a bit of knowledge. The most informative of all being "your government cant handle Brexit".

Im up for out, by the way, if its out out and theres a proper plan around it (yes, I hear you laughing).

Really though its anything but BINO IMO, as thats just farcical.

I suspect many a leave supporter would feel similar.

But we'd have the backstop, freedom of movement and have to accept most rules with no say - that's not exactly a positive. Norway don't want us in it anyway and have already said so.

Another referendum would be one of the most brutal things you'll ever see, imagine how vicious the next few months would be. I think I'd have to go on holiday for a while, the press, social medical news and everything else would be dominated by it and I'd imagine it would get pretty personal with multiple demonstrations and arrests.

Next few months? Theres an interesting concept. We have 2 months until we leave.

Wouldnt any potential General election, referendum, leadership vote etc all have to happen within that timeframe?

 

[r-u-s-x]

Wouldnt any potential General election, referendum, leadership vote etc all have to happen within that timeframe?

it wont, imo either the EU extend A50 or we revoke it.

 

[scaramanga]

Same as France then

I would describe France as socialist rather than Marxist. I'd describe Corbyn and his band of merry terrorist sympathisers as Marxist.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I would describe France as socialist rather than Marxist. I'd describe Corbyn and his band of merry terrorist sympathisers as Marxist.

I am sure you do.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I'd keep the four pillars, open up trade with the rest of he world, compete heavily with the EU via favourable regulation and taxation and accept all EU law when related to goods traded with the EU.

It's essentially EFTA without the EU's environmental and employment overreach.

The EU would never let the UK have free trade with it, while being able to have different terms. The whole premise for EU laws is to ensure companies can all compete fairly across the EU. Pipe dream and we wouldn’t accept the reverse - say France being able to trade with us while undercutting UK firms and doing independent trade deals. Nevergoningtohappen.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[r-u-s-x]

The EU would never let the UK have free trade with it, while being able to have different terms. The whole premise for EU laws is to ensure companies can all compete fairly across the EU. Pipe dream and we wouldn’t accept the reverse - say France being able to trade with us while undercutting UK firms and doing independent trade deals. Nevergoningtohappen.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

is that not the Norwegian model?

* I know they also have the employment and environmental parts but they are allowed independent trade deals and still set their own tax rate.

 

[Grays_1890]

I appreciate another referendum is of course a risk, but IMHO itll be a remain slam-dunk.

If there is another vote I see carnage on the streets.

Look at Remain feeling hard done by losing a vote, imagine what it will be like winning a vote and being told you can't have it and there will be a rerun, I predict bloodshed it will be that bad. The whole landscape will change for good and that will have a long term impact on future voting.

230 votes against her plan pales in terms of the numbers of those that voted to leave so I don’t buy the crazy calls that it means there has to be another vote, for me the votes done.

 

[r-u-s-x]

If there is another vote I see carnage on the streets.

Look at Remain feeling hard done by losing a vote, imagine what it will be like winning a vote and being told you can't have it and there will be a rerun, I predict bloodshed it will be that bad. The whole landscape will change for good and that will have a long term impact on future voting.

230 votes against her plan pales in terms of the numbers of those that voted to leave so I don’t buy the crazy calls that it means there has to be another vote, for me the votes done.

Are you getting this (violence) from your own experiences? I mix with a wide range of people and within the leave part apathy is the most common emotion rather than a call to violence. I am sure there will be upset and distrust but I can't see carnage on the streets myself.

 

[Baleforce]

Are you getting this (violence) from your own experiences? I mix with a wide range of people and within the leave part apathy is the most common emotion rather than a call to violence. I am sure there will be upset and distrust but I can't see carnage on the streets myself.

the division is already there, the violence is coming from groups piggy backing protest to push their own agenda imo

there is no fixing this, the country is divided and will be for generations, there is no middle ground

(having read that back I'm not sure its obvious that I agree with you, but I do)

 

[Grays_1890]

Are you getting this (violence) from your own experiences? I mix with a wide range of people and within the leave part apathy is the most common emotion rather than a call to violence. I am sure there will be upset and distrust but I can't see carnage on the streets myself.

There has been carnage already and violence, lots of evidence out there of it, so as an educated guess, based on that happening with a fair vote/outcome only leads me to believe there will be worse if a vote is ignored and a re run is taken.

Leave being honoured would be a good thing for the long term democracy of the country in my opinion, voted make a difference, get the polling booths etc. If there is a second vote the mood will be different, whats the point in putting my X in the box if thats not honoured? What does that say about telling people to vote? It will be bullsheeet.

 

[r-u-s-x]

the division is already there, the violence is coming from groups piggy backing protest to push their own agenda imo

there is no fixing this, the country is divided and will be for generations, there is no middle ground

(having read that back I'm not sure its obvious that I agree with you, but I do)

I think the vast majority of people just get on with things and do not really care about the outcome. I can see a heated minority but not enough for carnage on the streets and a second vote doing no more harm for a divided country than the situation we are in now. Those that are concerned are already divided, a second vote may entrench that but not bring more into it.

All imo obviously.

 

[r-u-s-x]

There has been carnage already and violence, lots of evidence out there of it, so as an educated guess, based on that happening with a fair vote/outcome only leads me to believe there will be worse if a vote is ignored and a re run is taken.

Leave being honoured would be a good thing for the long term democracy of the country in my opinion, voted make a difference, get the polling booths etc. If there is a second vote the mood will be different, whats the point in putting my X in the box if thats not honoured? What does that say about telling people to vote? It will be bullsheeet

None of the leave options are what were being sold at the last referendum, I personally think an informed vote is more democratic than an uninformed vote. I would hope I would feel the same if I was on the other side but freely admit it may be because "my side" lost.

*Lying on the outcome on a single issue is different to lying in your manifesto imo.