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Politics, politics, politics

Brexit is constitutional not a trade deal
That's precisely what it is.

will involve altering laws and removing rights, hence the need for Parliamentary input.
Only if we choose to remove or repeal some of them. We have passed our own laws and regulations that are in line with the EU ones - we would need parliamentary approval to remove or alter them but they will stay as they are until we choose to alter them.

We are a Parliamentary Democracy
I think there is a serious democracy deficit in fptp and would have some form of proportional voting so yes I believe that they should have their say under this system.
I think that the country rejected proportional voting some time ago. It doesn't really fix democracy anyway - all options are a compromise. The best we can do is keep as much decision making out of centralised areas as possible so that the average voter can have a more significant say - hence my dislike of the EU.
 
We can worry about the end later. For the moment I think that the government needs to set out what it is proposing and allow parliament the chance to discuss it.
How do we do that without revealing the machinations of our negotiation to the EU? If all parties make their red lines clear (and I suspect the Labour party in its current form will just work as a spoiler to the government) then the EU knows exactly where and how we can move.

It would be like swapping a queen for a pawn.
 
How do we do that without revealing the machinations of our negotiation to the EU? If all parties make their red lines clear (and I suspect the Labour party in its current form will just work as a spoiler to the government) then the EU knows exactly where and how we can move.

It would be like swapping a queen for a pawn.

I do not think that the government needs to reveal its whole hand, just set out what future relationship it is seeking with Europe. You would be setting that our in day one of negotiations, so you are not really giving anything away and having parliamentary support may well strengthen our negotiating position and decrease tensions.

There will obviously be thousands of lines below that which would not be practical to go through in parliament.

Our negotiating lines will become apparent as soon as we start discussions with the EU anyway and they will leak them.

I do not believe that the Labour Party would seek to block. It is not in its interests and it is as divided as the Tories on this issue. There is though a parliamentary majority for a debate on our terms of exit and that is made up of MPs from across all parties.
 
I do not think that the government needs to reveal its whole hand, just set out what future relationship it is seeking with Europe. You would be setting that our in day one of negotiations, so you are not really giving anything away and having parliamentary support may well strengthen our negotiating position and decrease tensions.

There will obviously be thousands of lines below that which would not be practical to go through in parliament.

Our negotiating lines will become apparent as soon as we start discussions with the EU anyway and they will leak them.

I do not believe that the Labour Party would seek to block. It is not in its interests and it is as divided as the Tories on this issue. There is though a parliamentary majority for a debate on our terms of exit and that is made up of MPs from across all parties.

Its ridiculous to think the Government have some hidden position which would serve them in 'outfoxing those stupid Europeans'. Not only is it totally the wrong approach whereby you pis the Union off and they will tell the government to fuk off, it is also extremely easy to read between the lines and guess the governments preferred outcome: controls on immigration, access to the single market with no or minimal tariffs and UK payments into the EU coffers for access.

It is the Opposition's job to oppose, to question, to pull apart. On something that is so seminal, so fundamental to this countries future, @scaramanga why would you not want the Opposition to uncover and critique what is going on?
 
The EU is a political and Trading Union, leaving is a trade deal but also very likely will remove a number of rights we currently hold as part of the Union.

"I think that the country rejected proportional voting some time ago. It doesn't really fix democracy anyway - all options are a compromise. The best we can do is keep as much decision making out of centralised areas as possible so that the average voter can have a more significant say - hence my dislike of the EU."

No they didn't, rejected Alternative Vote which is not proportional representation. It doesn't fix democracy but it is more democratic than FPTP.

" The best we can do is keep as much decision making out of centralised areas as possible so that the average voter can have a more significant say" and you are arguing against Parliamentary involvement, is this consistent?
 
interesting reply to the above article.....................

Sadly all those who have a strategic advantage to gain from the BREXIT finalities will be claiming their understanding of the exact psychology and situation that the UK has and Jacek as are presentative of a failing (economic) EU State, unable to retain millions of its youth that have up sticks and moved (largely) to the UK, and a country desperate to continue to receive the overly generous handouts the UK contributions make possible is no different as he sets out his take on the BREXIT bun fight.

What Jacek fails to understand is that the BREXIT vote was not "primarily" about economics. IT was far more to do with freedom and the freedom of the UK to make its own laws; create its own legislation and not be manipulated and exploited by the Franco/German Axis which is now calling the shots in Europe. Should there be a massive economic shock to the UK, I can assure Jacek the millions of economic migrants who have found shelter and a future here in the UK will be the first to feel the heat and if a breakdown of social cohesion is part of the EU's plans to "force" the UK to remain a member of the rotting corpse that is political Europe he will find many of his jobless compatriots returning home to a Polish economy which will be reeling from the lack of funds not only from the UK withdrawing its contribution to Europe, but the lack of funds being wired back to Poland by those hundreds of thousands of people who are through their UK funds lifeline making Poland a place worth living in. The EU's structure is completely flawed, because it allows a government in Poland to fail its own people economically by not investing in industry and job creation and simply to rely on the investments and good governance of countries like the UK upon which other people (in Europe) can advantage themselves whilst never having contributed to the public spending of those nations they seek to profit from. It is this kind of exploitative model the British object to and to find themselves shackled to these indebted and impoverished nations by majority voting, forcing once wealthy countries to drain their coffers down so that the economically incompetent nations have a win win situation is completely unacceptable. Countries like Poland can fail their young knowing that the youth can export themselves to countries that are succeeding so taking the responsibility off their political shoulders, and at the same time because of their failures be given massive handouts so they can continue to be ineffective and unchanged, so the cycle of failure repeats.

The British know full well that we are in fact fighting for much more than economic survival, we are fighting for the soul of our freedom and the meaning of democracy. We can see by the whole tone of the EU that they are a spiteful; greedy; power hungry entity that will get nasty when its (very) personal interests are threatened. The cabal of Shultz; Tusk; Junker and Barnier are a miserable leadership, based on a Franco/German dominance of Europe preserving French interests and continuing to help Germany exports be as affordable as possible. The British are not alone at understanding the failures of the EU - the French people were in fact more negative about Europe than those of the British; however, after a few months of anti British rhetoric you will see a very tightening view from the British themselves. If we have to jump start our exports; find new markets; find new allies; find new ways to earn our living in the world we will - Brexit will give us the incentive to worker harder to become a world exporter. Despite the rhetoric of the EU in attempting to alienate and isolate the UK (a bit like playground bullies) so childish and pathetic is the "leadership" of the EU institution, it is an embarassment to diplomacy and civilised advancement. By alientating the UK all that will happen is that the EU peoples will see what a vile creation the EU and Brussels actually are. The memories of the European nations are very short. France was rescued by an alliance of UK and USA forces in the last war, as well as Poland which was restored to independence and Germany has forgotten its bullying heinous past as it appears to seek to repeat the errors of the future - the UK have won the right to have its democracy respected if the price for exercising democracy is punishment what kind of club (exactly) is the EU one you can join but never leave (without massive consequences) a bit like the Mafia?

The British don't want to be part of a political Europe - never have done never will do, but has been coerced and blind folded down one alley after another to a destination it doesn't want to arrive at.

Had the EU been wildly successful at all the things it aspired to achieve; economic growth; foreign policy alignment; fiscal prudence; immigration control; sound security; etc then I dare say the UK would be less keen to leave a successful structure even if it did go against the grain of our strongly held love of freedom and self determination. Unfortunately for the EU it cannot point to many achievements which have made the EU project such a stand out success; instead there is one crisis after another coming thick and fast BREXIT simply being one major symptom of a failing EU.

Rather than railing against the UK as the "difficult child" that needs a good beating to get it to conform the EU should be examining its whole structure and narrative and ask the simple question is it better to have a co-operative economically interdependent Europe with open markets and strengthening bonds and look at European integration as a long term objective perhaps over a 1-200 year timeframe? Or, as the EU elites would prefer to speed up the process of integration within a 50 year time period for 28-30+ nations all with differing cultures/languages and economic strengths - crushing cultures; democracies; identities and economies; so that the peoples of Europe become jaded; apathetic and confused by the whole speed of the chaos that is around us?

Projects of this nature take time, and if there were more people who understood the time required for cultures to merge effectively rather than be beaten into submission then the inevitable collapse of EU Europe could be avoided.

Brexit is an opportunity for Europe to re-think what it is doing and to seek consent from the peoples who are the subject of the interference. Until the Brexit vote NO ONE in the UK has been able to comment on the EU; the death of our national identity; a coming post democratic world. The EU and complicit politicians failed us, the EU lied about its objectives and tricked people into a United States of Europe - had they been open at the outset and started a slow and protracted process that was over a longer timescale then we could have easily avoided the huge problems we now face.

Sadly we lack decent leadership, having been in politics myself I recognise that most of the people who make it to the top are bullies; egotists and the self obsessed, in many ways you have to be that way to climb the dangerous greasy pole to power. However, the issues we are facing need detailed work at the coal face by intelligent empathetic people. Dealing with issues of mass inward migration; addressing the alienation and the spoilt life chances of people who see their jobs and futures walk out the door with every new (unwanted) immigrant and EU diktat; we need to deal with the massive social costs of economic tourism in terms of house prices and lack of affordability; welfare system exploitation and pressure on social services and the massive changes to our cultures.

If the EU had any empathy or understanding it would never have allowed crazy policies to spiral out of control. Brexit is a cri de coeur from the British people. An intelligent; internationally focused; worried electorate, that sees a deaf and blind EU stumbling towards the cliff edge, lashing out at critics rather than addressing the problems at hand. Had the EU helped Cameron deal with the very real problems the UK is facing with over population and did the decent thing to assist we may not be in this position - but the EU and those who profit from our economy are selfish and have no regard for the rights of British people, it would appear to be the rights of everyone else comes first; we feel exploited and abused and then have to pay for the privilege! The UK has spoke BREXIT is BREXIT and any EU attempt to make the UK suffer demeans the EU and will inflict more suffering on those 5 million EU migrants who have made their home in the UK - you are only damaging yourselves would that you could see it and demonstrating the EU needs to change urgently.
 
What is everyone's definition of EU punishing the UK? No free trade and financial passport? Basically not giving the UK freedoms that only the EU members enjoy? This is the only "threat".

Remember BREXIT means BREXIT
 
What is everyone's definition of EU punishing the UK? No free trade and financial passport? Basically not giving the UK freedoms that only the EU members enjoy? This is the only "threat".

Remember BREXIT means BREXIT

It was always clear that there would be a trade off between access to the single market and restrictions on freedom of movement. The more freedom of movement that we allow, the more access we will have. The issue for us is that passporting rights for the city will probably be the first to go and that we see jobs and investment move overseas.
 
It was always clear that there would be a trade off between access to the single market and restrictions on freedom of movement. The more freedom of movement that we allow, the more access we will have. The issue for us is that passporting rights for the city will probably be the first to go and that we see jobs and investment move overseas.
Is that bullying on the part of the EU. Even if they say (don't think they will) no status quo free movement then no free trade is that bullying.

I can't see how it is
 
How low does the pound have to fall before it becomes a really big problem?

And at the point, what should the government be doing to reassure 'the world' that Sterling is still a currency worth holding?
 
How low does the pound have to fall before it becomes a really big problem?

And at the point, what should the government be doing to reassure 'the world' that Sterling is still a currency worth holding?
In simple terms It's great for exports but as we are a net importer will likely lead to inflation.

Long term may have to pay higher interest on bonds issued to cover fx risk for foreign investors to keep buying our debt
 
In simple terms It's great for exports but as we are a net importer will likely lead to inflation.

Long term may have to pay higher interest on bonds issued to cover fx risk for foreign investors to keep buying our debt

Yes, but at what level does it have to fall to before the people in charge think "sh1t, we've got a problem" ?

It's gone lower v the US Dollar than at any time during my lifetime, but then we've been in the EU for my lifetime as well. Do the alarm bells ring when it's at parity? Lower?
 
Correction, according to this chart, it was lower in the mid 80s (I was born in 1984).

http://fxtop.com/en/historical-exch...16&LARGE=1&LANG=en&VAR=0&MM1M=0&MM3M=0&MM1Y=0

(sorry for the long url)

So, I guess if we drop below 1.04, it might be time to worry, as it's not been that low before. Perhaps we won't fall that far.
Not sure what people in charge can do. Raise interest rates slows growth even further and the economy is built personal debt.

We can't buy GBP as we don't have the reserves.

Unless I am missing something we just have to ride it out.
 
Is that bullying on the part of the EU. Even if they say (don't think they will) no status quo free movement then no free trade is that bullying.

I can't see how it is

It won't be no trade, it will be degrees of access, for degrees of freedom of movement. It's not blackmail and it is consistent with they have offered other non-EU countries.
 
It won't be no trade, it will be degrees of access, for degrees of freedom of movement. It's not blackmail and it is consistent with they have offered other non-EU countries.
That's the point I am trying to make, I just can't see the bullying aspect, even if they decide wto levels its not bullying.
 
That's the point I am trying to make, I just can't see the bullying aspect, even if they decide wto levels its not bullying.

There is no bullying aspect. People are so used to seeing international relations as us versus them that they find it difficult to think otherwise.
 
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