Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Gutter Boy]

Earlier a regular poster on here was banging on about the so called 'liberal elite.' The elite are not at all 'liberal.' The people running this place are the same lot that have been running the show for the last five hundred years. They are conservative. First time I have ever read someone describe the likes of Rees Mogg as a 'liberal elite.' Very funny if it wasn't so tragic.

Liberals generally are about the least socially liberal people out there, because they tend to hate anyone who doesn't read the Guardian. Genuine liberals would be more laissez faire about the plebs, and not seek to enforce their world view on everyone

Rees Mogg is very economically liberal, there's a bit of a difference. Although both economic liberals and social liberals tend to despise the poor

 

[Gutter Boy]

I also work in the university sector and, while my sample size is quite limited, I have to say that my experience has been the opposite of this. Those that have left have usually done so due to a failure to find suitable work. Those I know that did find suitable employment opportunities have invariably stayed, uncertainty and all.

But it's a nice, convenient line to use.

One thing the UK university sector tends to have is loads of (very good) Italian and Greek academic staff. But that's because the EU inflexibility has destroyed southern european economies and caused a massive brain drain out of them

 

[MrTea]

There will actually be more European students here after Brexit. Currently universities avoid recruiting them, because they only pay the same fees as British students; whereas Chinese, Indian and American students pay about 3 times the amount. When I went to university there were 10 times more Greeks, French etc. than there are now since 'level playing field' crap got imposed.

I've recently stopped working for University recruitment for a Russell group university, and while remaining as respectful as I possibly can, this is very/completely inaccurate. British Universities were actually betting on European students to make up the shortfall in recruitment during the "demographic dip." They have tried to make this up with overseas numbers, but without that base level of EU students to make up the GB shortfall they're doomed, the International figures have been over estimated for YEARS now because it helps VC's get big loans.

One thing the UK university sector tends to have is loads of (very good) Italian and Greek academic staff. But that's because the EU inflexibility has destroyed southern european economies and caused a massive brain drain out of them

It's also down to the amount of research funding enjoyed by academics as a result of EU funding. If that research funding remains, they'll stay - all indications are that the funding will not be replaced. I used to work for a languages department and most of our staff were paid for by their own domestic governments through EU funding schemes. When we loose access to that funding, in order to reach parity they'd have to start paying wages to staff they didn't have to before - and invest on research on top of it. The current money assigned for this is barely going to touch the sides.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Thing is, I don't think I've met any remainers who think that. I'm sure they exist but I personally have never met them. All of them, including me, can see faults within the EU. And to some extent, we've always been the bad sibling in this relationship, never really wanting to be in the family anyway, never seeing themselves as part of the family (I've always found it funny how often people say they're going to Europe, as if we're not already physically in Europe).

A lot of remainers don't mind that we didn't take on the Euro, don't necessarily want closer integration, would balk at the suggestion of a USE or a European army whereas I've met more than a few people from the mainland who are very happy with the Euro, feel close to their 'European brothers' and see a USE and army as the best balwark for Europe to counter the USA/China/Russia/ potentially India in the future. It will certainly be interesting to see how we approach these things in the future if we do crash out in a no deal, Boris refuses to pay any money and we sour our relationship with a bloc of countries we should still consider our closest allies.

I've certainly met lots of people who voted leave who think the EU are at the root of so many of our problems though and an evil empire gradually taking over every aspect of our lives. My recent favourite was Gutterboy blaming the EU (iirc) for how many homegrown players we had to register for the CL and opining that now we were tipping the scales of UEFA 28 vs 27 non EU vs EU, we'd be teaming up with other FAs to get the law changed for a policy that affects pretty much nobody but us. It was an incredible reach but one that made me chuckle.

Hello, i often don't log in for long chunks of time. I will take the time later to be fair to you and respond in more detail.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Why exactly will they be harder to solve? This is what I'm struggling to understand.

We have a first past the post system. France have a presidential system (one in which last elections people completely rejected the status quo and also swept his very new party into power in the parliament). Germany have a PR system, with a culture of coalitions and compromise. Belgium have an absolute joke of a system where their country basically seems to have no functioning government whatsoever. Etc etc.

We had a chance to change the system in 2011. The Lib Dems first of all went for a compromise on a system that was pretty crappy anyway and then somehow didn't get the Tories to stay neutral on the matter. And the people voted against AV, with a 42% turnout. Where was the EU in all of this? Did they tell us to stay FPTP? That AV was brick? That we couldn't have a referendum? That we needed to go to PR? Nope, the EU didn't get involved at all because it is absolutely none of their business.

What has von der Layden said?

Also I know you're being flippant but you must know that this comment is just untrue? At the very least by dint of the fact that they come from a pool of dozens of countries with about 500 million people, as opposed to 1 (4) countries with 65 million? I've just done the most cursory of searches for the last 5 European Commission presidents (excluding the interim one) and they come from 4 different countries and studied at 5 different universities across 5 different countries. Though unsusprisingly most have done law or economics. Contrast to this: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/feb/23/ppe-oxford-university-degree-that-rules-britain

Nobody is forcing our people to continue to vote or continue to elevate people who did PPE at Oxford or to lick the boots of those who went to Eton/Harrow/Winchester and yet we continue to.

I'm 400% sure that our politicians will continue to blame the EU afterwards. If we leave on a no deal and our economy responds accordingly, I reckon that will be a good few decades worth

Out of interest, what changes do you think you want to make to British society and the way we're run that you feel we can't make currently because of the EU?

Ditto re this post. Will take more time later to respond

 

[glorygloryeze]

No. There are not plans for an EU army. There is a cooperation agreement - which the UK is not even a part of! And the common security and defence policy, which the UK started with France and is run from the UK. It does monitoring and things like post conflict managment.

--- that is all there is in terms of EU defence, nothing more ----
​

Who is correct? This article or your sources? It can only be one. What are the untruths in this: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/25/brexiters-european-army-myths-franco-german

I've spent too much time on this point and it seems to come down to potato-PohTahToh wordplay: Army vs Defence Union vs PESCO.

I can't be bothered to go any further if you can't see what is right in front of you; Even the Irish are worried that these new developments make it harder for them to keep their usual position of neutrality. I could copy and paste Ursula and Juncker's OWN WORDS but alas i can't be bothered and in any case we've been through this before..

 

[SpurMeUp]

I've spent too much time on this point and it seems to come down to potato-PohTahToh wordplay: Army vs Defence Union vs PESCO.

I can't be bothered to go any further if you can't see what is right in front of you; Even the Irish are worried that these new developments make it harder for them to keep their usual position of neutrality. I could copy and paste Ursula and Juncker's OWN WORDS but alas i can't be bothered and in any case we've been through this before..

Junker's term of office will end in October. I'd suggest his quotes are pretty much outdated. Forget "right in front of us" it is never happening.

"There will never be any situation in which Brussels rules over a series of battalions and member states are compelled to deploy their armed forces against their consent. The main reason for that is the EU’s national governments hate the idea and always have."

 

[glorygloryeze]

Junker's term of office will end in October. I'd suggest his quotes are pretty much outdated. Forget "right in front of us" it is never happening.

"There will never be any situation in which Brussels rules over a series of battalions and member states are compelled to deploy their armed forces against their consent. The main reason for that is the EU’s national governments hate the idea and always have."

And what about Ursula's quotes? Are they outdated too?

 

[SpurMeUp]

And what about Ursula's quotes? Are they outdated too?

Is she some broad you met down the rub a dub?

 

[parklane1]

The country is torn because the people that lost never accepted the result.

The way they behaved since means the gloves are off. No general election or referendum after will mean anything. If a side loses they can just refuse to accept.

Democracy died thanks to remoaners. Now we will have the rise of more extreme parties, because it has been proved you stop things you don't want to happen just by stamping your feet and moaning like a petulant child.

The reason why Brexit happened is that the majority of folks who voted wanted a change from the status quo, they were tinkled of with what was happening and decided they have had enough and voted for a change.

Since then they have seen the remoaners throw their toys out of the pram and shout foul and " we can not allow this to happen" if the remoaners think that there were a lot of folks wanting a change before the vote just wait and see what happens IF/WHEN they try and overthrow a majority verdict.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Is she some broad you met down the rub a dub?

Your reply says everything i've laid out about our exchanges.
I'm out

 

[SpurMeUp]

Your reply says everything i've laid out about our exchanges.
I'm out

Are you on Dragon's Den?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Liberals generally are about the least socially liberal people out there, because they tend to hate anyone who doesn't read the Guardian. Genuine liberals would be more laissez faire about the plebs, and not seek to enforce their world view on everyone

Rees Mogg is very economically liberal, there's a bit of a difference. Although both economic liberals and social liberals tend to despise the poor

He's liberal all right, he believes that every worker should be free to be exploited. He's a reactionary clam!

 

[AuroRaman]

The reason why Brexit happened is that the majority of folks who voted wanted a change from the status quo, they were tinkled of with what was happening and decided they have had enough and voted for a change.

Since then they have seen the remoaners throw their toys out of the pram and shout foul and " we can not allow this to happen" if the remoaners think that there were a lot of folks wanting a change before the vote just wait and see what happens IF/WHEN they try and overthrow a majority verdict.

Nah, I'm not having that the majority that voted (and I stress 'voted') were tinkled off with the status quo of the EU and were tinkled off with the EU. That is what a small section of our government and the media told us we should be tinkled off about and the majority that voted Leave fell for it. Apart from some folks such as Danish, I hadn't heard a peep in the general public or in the wider media about the big bad EU until the run up to that referendum.

On the flipside, Remain were so nonchalant and arrogant about the whole affair that when it came about they decided they didn't even need to vote and would leave it up to others, rightfully getting their asses handed to them. Since then yes, people who voted Remain have realised the clusterfudge they allowed to happen and due to the complete ineptitude of the fudgers who didn't actually think the majority would vote Leave, have a strong case for a second referendum (I am against this to be clear). They have a strong case because no-one, literally NO-ONE has a clear plan for it and the standing government has yo-yo'd so ridiculously on what deal or no deal or there will be a deal or we don't really need a deal or something about sovereignty blah blah blah...

Once we leave the EU, there will be some other status quo or something else we'll be advised to be tinkled off about and the circle will be started again.

This is all of course in my opinion but if you disagree I shall retort with a strongly worded reply and I say good day to you Sir.

 

[P.D.]

Time to revoke Article 50 and be done with it. The damage the tory party has done to this country since 2010 knows no bounds. There was no need for a referendum in the first place, only called by David Cameron to try and appease some of the old tories in the 1922.

The country has been screwed over. The country is torn, a massive rise in the far right, a rise an racism and more. All caused by this bull brick.

Sadly the opposition is also currently incompetent.

What a mess.

I think that's a little unfair, it wasn't solely called by Cameron in a way. The Lib Dems had it as party policy to offer an in/out referendum previously, infact Ed Davey and some other lib dems stormed out of parliament at the refusal of allowing an amendment to be called to a vote on the Lison treat. Caroline Lucas (and I assume the green party) also supported one a few years back as well.

 

[parklane1]

Nah, I'm not having that the majority that voted (and I stress 'voted') were tinkled off with the status quo of the EU and were tinkled off with the EU. That is what a small section of our government and the media told us we should be tinkled off about and the majority that voted Leave fell for it (I say small because of the the split between MP's who voted Remain and Leave) Apart from some folks such as Danish, I hadn't heard a peep on here, in the general public or in the wider media about the big bad EU until the run up to that referendum.

On the flipside, Remain were so nonchalant and arrogant about the whole affair when it came about that they decided they didn't even need to all vote and would leave it up to others, and rightfully got their asses handed to them. Since then yes, people who voted Remain have realised the clusterfudge they allowed to happen and due to the complete ineptitude of the fudgers who didn't actually think the people would vote to take us out of the EU, have a strong case for a second referendum. (I am against this to be clear) They have a strong case because no-one, literally NO-ONE has a clear plan for it and the standing government has yo-yo'd so ridiculously on what deal or no deal or there will be a deal or we don't really need a deal or something about sovereignty blah blah blah...

Once we leave the EU, there will be some other status quo or something else we'll be advised to be tinkled off about and the circle will be started again.

This is all of course in my opinion but if you disagree I shall retort with a strongly worded reply and I say good day to you Sir.

Thank you good Sir i tip my hat to you.

Why do you think that Corbyn got voted the Labour leader?, Trump won the election in the states? it was because folks wanted a change and it was the same with Brexit. Lets be honest the majority of folks were amazed at all those decisions, they could not see/accept that there are many around who were sick of he status quo and that is why they happened.

 

[AuroRaman]

Thank you good Sir i tip my hat to you.

Why do you think that Corbyn got voted the Labour leader?, Trump won the election in the states? it was because folks wanted a change and it was the same with Brexit. Lets be honest the majority of folks were amazed at all those decisions, they could not see/accept that there are many around who were sick of he status quo and that is why they happened.

Yes I agree with all of that. The people that voted have spoken, they want change. It’s a fascinating times we are living in, I struggle with seeing what the end game might be, a fairer, centrist society? Or absolute carnage?

However I do stand by my point that leaving the EU was a disingenuous issue brought about to whip up frenzy and garner support for parties like UKIP (and it worked), leading up to the referendum. The 3-year (so far) fall-out from it has shown that this could very well be the case.

I’m just bored of it Parklane, fudging bored.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[parklane1]

Yes I agree with all of that. The people that voted have spoken, they want change. It’s a fascinating times we are living in, I struggle with seeing what the end game might be, a fairer, centrist society? Or absolute carnage?

However I do stand by my point that leaving the EU was a disingenuous issue bought about to whip up frenzy and garner support for parties like UKIP (and it worked), leading up to the referendum. The 3-year (so far) fall-out from it has shown that this could very well be the case.

I’m just bored of it Parklane, fudging bored.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

I think we all are mate to be honest, i have never been into politics in a big way but i must admit its shameful ( imo) what has been happening in the commons over the last year or so and the complete distain that M.P.'s have shown towards the voters/public.

Self serving arseholes everyone of them and where is Guy Fawkes when you need him.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Boris gonna call it?

 

[Baleforce]

Boris gonna call it?

seems like