****OMT - TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs WOOLWICH ARSEnal****

[Nigeyman]

Another point Nigey, people will say don't get carried away after beating Stoke, because any team in this league is capable of comprehensively winning their home games against mid-table opposition. See Hull vs Fulham. It's a lot more of an interesting barometer as to our progress and capability as a side when seeing how we match up against our close rivals. I wasn't demanding a win today, but I would have liked a much better performance.

fair enough...no issues with that.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Well yes individually and Collectively we made far too many mistakes...

Our peformance was poor and we never made things easy for ourselves.... in fact the total opposite....

Bottom line They are more cohesive than us and are better drilled than we are when they dont have the ball...... dont have any complaints that they were the better team...
but as I have explained in a sliding doors moment Eriksen slots that chance home and our whole teams gets a lift...

The peformance was not as good as the Man Utd one for obvious reasons.......I dont think quality wise we are a million miles behind Arsenal but they look so natural with their strategy with and without the ball where as we look like we are thinking and not letting things come naturally......Im just saying we shouldnt get too down.....Arsenal have made lots of teams look bang average this season at the emirates....teams like Liverpool...

If anything this game highlights how much needs to be done on the training pitch.

I agree with all of that. We shouldn't get too down. We had injuries. Tim hasn't had much time in training. There's been a lot of fixtures. I don't fear for our future and I don't think it's going to be another decade before we get close to Arsenal again.

But I am just surprised at the positivity relating to the performance today. I don't want to talk about the previous manager but there's been many better ones than today that got slaughtered under him, and I don't see where all these chances came from that people are talking about. Slinging crosses in don't count as chances for me.

 

[thfcsteff]

But we choose to go with a 4, and people are happy that we do. I'm happy with Eriksen, Lennon and Dembele as 3 of those choices, and it was decided Capoue wasn't needed and an academy product could do the job.

It was a shame for Bentaleb because I thought he was a passenger for large parts. I was hoping that with his inclusion there would be some new age, ahead of its time, Tim thinking and reasoning that meant giving a youngster his first start away in the NLD wouldn't be that much of an issue. But it wasn't. The fear was that he'd be overwhelmed by Arsenal and he was. No hidden story there, it was expected and it happened. Shame for him as I think he is a very tidy player and will do well for us.

In today's situation, frankly, I expected more of Dembele (I'm addressing your reply above this one here mate)…he didn't do enough for me today. Not by a long shot. For someone of his undoubted talent and abilities, at the end of the day he has had a minimal effect on the game in areas and ways that really count. I thought Bentaleb was fine, did the best he could in the formation/with personnel we chose to use. I heartily expected Ade to be dropping deeper for a 4-5-1.

 

[Robspur12]

Amazed to see some say we had decent passing…

I felt the saddest bit about today was how when it mattered, we were technically inferior.
Eriksen's chance was not taken.
Soldado's shot in the first-half, clean, open, not even on target.
Countless heavy first touches and not enough clean winning of the second ball.
Ade's second-half shot 6 yards out.
Simple use of the ball at key moments.
Simple defending at key moments.

Obviously there are reasons and circumstances which led to some of these things happening, I'm aware of that, but we cannot ignore the fact that the goons were almost surgical in the precision of their play.

I hate losing to these ****ers, but will happily take this so long as Timbo learns from it. And to be fair, it will be tough to know what he can do until he has a fit squad and the rest of the season. When that happens, I hope the following occurs.

1) Rose is not first-choice LB or even second-choice. He is just not good enough. His attacking play is not productive enough to cover for his consistent lack of concentration/decision making at key moments in key areas. I've long felt this BTW, his mistake today merely adds a little more fuel to that fire. He would be perfect for Aston Villa but not Spurs IMO.

2) Chadli is not in the squad. He is average and no more than that, a decent player who lacks the mentality and bravery to be anything more. I think he's sadly a big bust, although only an 7/8 mill bust so not so bad. Again, let him go to West Ham or somewhere like that, his level. Passengers are tolerated there.

3) Daws must be replaced by the end of the season. i love the man, I love his commitment, but if we do want to be a top top side, there is no room for sentimentality any longer. IMO he costs us yet again (I tab him as every bit as responsible for the first goal as Walker, who IMV has spent half a season with half an eye on covering him).

4) Soldado - a decision has to be made. Clearly this man IS technically one of our very best players. He has the ability to play tremendous first-time balls, has some great touches and flicks and has a fine overall game. The problem is, for whatever reason, unless Paulinho is playing, there seems to be nearly nobody else who is on his wavelength. His confidence in front of (or around) goal is at a low-point. We either need to make some adaptations and make sure that Eriksen and Paulinho can play closer to him in the final third. or we have to cut our losses and replace. It is unfair to both parties to continue the way we currently are.

5) Dembele - enormously frustrating player who again, we need to make a decision on.

6) We cannot continue to rely on simple 4-4-2. We absolutely have to be 4-5-1 or even 3-5-2 (not with Rose and Daws!!!!)…I do NOT want to sacrifice the width of our play, but we need to be cleverer in midfield areas.

I agree about Rose. Too early IMO to judge Chadli and I still have high hopes for Soldado. But this focus on Daws as our "worse" centre back completely overestimates the ability of the other defenders. Chiriches gets consistently done by the diagonal ball behind him, Kaboul is rarely fit and when he is has the tendency to the odd brain fart. Verts prefers to be higher up the pitch and is often caught out at CB, in fact I believe his best position would be a defensive midfielder. So if you are saying we need another 2 centre backs because no of ours are good enough in that position at least it would be fairer. As for 442, we seemed to have done ok in the league with it and created a number of good chances especially playing the wonky. It hasn't hurt City either.

 

[Jordinho]

Wenger: "After that, what he did was not offensive. It's a reaction that didn't offend anybody. I have seen the pictures and I think it doesn't even look aggressive, he is smiling."

Throwing coins at him was a pretty stupid thing to do, but I wouldn't call it non-offensive.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Twisting things a little there. Check again and I've not said that dignity = winning. Simply that class costs nothing and often sets us apart from arsenal.

I think you wrote the following suggesting that fouling and haranguing is the secrete to united success.

"I don't think anyone could ever call one of Ferguson's sides 'dignified', what with their constant haranguing of the referee, their sly fouls, their fans roaring at Old Trafford when a decision went against them, their manager fuming and spewing at the final whistle if the result wasn't what he wanted. But they will go down in history as possibly the greatest collection of sides any single club has had in the English game.."

No, I suggested that their fouling and haranguing could in no way make them appear 'dignified', as per your initial definition of the term. It's right there in the first bit of the sentence. However, them not being 'dignified' didn't stop them being one of the greatest sides of the game, and I stick by that. I also pointed out in the very next post (or perhaps even in the same post, can't really remember) that as long as were sticking to the 'pass and move' style of play that we helped create, whatever we did ,e it haranguing the referee or 'leaving a leg in' would be completely justified 'class' be damned, and I also stick by that.

'Class' is for the losers looking for a bloody excuse to give. Sure, it costs nothing, and you can argue that it sets us aside from Arsenal. But Arsenal also argue that they have more 'class' than we do, as evidenced by their 'money can't buy you class' posters and their '127 years of class' utterances that they constantly spew on their own forums. How can you decide who is more 'classy' in that eventuality?

'Class' costs us nothing, and earns us nothing. Our 'class' will go unrecorded in the annals of history. Arsenal's win in yet another North London derby? That goes down in history, all right. Alex Ferguson's all conquering United side? They'll definitely go down in history. Our 'classy', trophyless 2008-2014 side? Only as underachievers, if at all.

I trust you get my point this time: I really can't make it much clearer. And, while I'm still on the subject, I apologise if I seemed (or seem) aggressive: it isn't the way I'd like to conduct conversations here, but the circumstances unfortunately afford very little by way of civility to angry minds like mine.

 

[Jordinho]

In today's situation, frankly, I expected more of Dembele (I'm addressing your reply above this one here mate)…he didn't do enough for me today. Not by a long shot. For someone of his undoubted talent and abilities, at the end of the day he has had a minimal effect on the game in areas and ways that really count. I thought Bentaleb was fine, did the best he could in the formation/with personnel we chose to use. I heartily expected Ade to be dropping deeper for a 4-5-1.

Depending on Ade to do anything is a big risk. Every so often you might as well have started with just 10 men.

 

[thfcsteff]

I agree with all of that. We shouldn't get too down. We had injuries. Tim hasn't had much time in training. There's been a lot of fixtures. I don't fear for our future and I don't think it's going to be another decade before we get close to Arsenal again.

But I am just surprised at the positivity relating to the performance today. I don't want to talk about the previous manager but there's been many better ones than today that got slaughtered under him, and I don't see where all these chances came from that people are talking about. Slinging crosses in don't count as chances for me.

I think the only reason there's a more relaxed attitude is perhaps because it is TS's first weeks in the job and everyone sees the injury list. In essence it is perhaps unfair on the previous, but the previous did himself no favors as we've discussed to death, plus TS deserves some time to be viewed properly.

As for the bolded bit above…well I'm not so sure, and I DO worry. It's why Feb 2012 will haunt me forever, just as 'that' Villa game did. It was a massive massive massive chance to leapfrog them AND keep them out of the CL.

 

[Nigeyman]

I agree with all of that. We shouldn't get too down. We had injuries. Tim hasn't had much time in training. There's been a lot of fixtures. I don't fear for our future and I don't think it's going to be another decade before we get close to Arsenal again.

But I am just surprised at the positivity relating to the performance today. I don't want to talk about the previous manager but there's been many better ones than today that got slaughtered under him, and I don't see where all these chances came from that people are talking about. Slinging crosses in don't count as chances for me.

Nor me........

where as some are prejudiced regarding AVB (I just want to forget as I liked the man and wanted him to build something here)
some are predjudiced regarding Tim.

What we need to do is judge the peformance of the team without keep harking back to managers.....In reality all I can question this game is perhaps ade's inclusion if he was not 100% and Capoue's emmision if he was fit....

Regarding the peformance we were beaten by a better team who have a plan defensively and Offensively......

I am gutted and this peformance does bother me....but we have changed managers again which means back to another drawing board.......

I would like to see what Tim does with Sandro Verts Paulie available.....will be interesting to see how we deal with palace a team who will have two well organised banks of 4 and will give nothing away...this will be interesting to see if timmy can set us up so we can unlock the door.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Nor me........

where as some are prejudiced regarding AVB (I just want to forget as I liked the man and wanted him to build something here)
some are predjudiced regarding Tim.

What we need to do is judge the peformance of the team without keep harking back to managers.....In reality all I can question this game is perhaps ade's inclusion if he was not 100% and Capoue's emmision if he was fit....

Regarding the peformance we were beaten by a better team who have a plan defensively and Offensively......

I am gutted and this peformance does bother me....but we have changed managers again which means back to another drawing board.......

I would like to see what Tim does with Sandro Verts Paulie available.....will be interesting to see how we deal with palace a team who will have two well organised banks of 4 and will give nothing away...this will be a to see if timmy can set us up so we can unlock the door.

Agreed 100 percent. For now, all I want to see is a bit of bite from our players in games like these. As for the manager? All I want from him currently is perhaps more game-time for Lamela.

 

[Nigeyman]

I agree about Rose. Too early IMO to judge Chadli and I still have high hopes for Soldado. But this focus on Daws as our "worse" centre back completely overestimates the ability of the other defenders. Chiriches gets consistently done by the diagonal ball behind him, Kaboul is rarely fit and when he is has the tendency to the odd brain fart. Verts prefers to be higher up the pitch and is often caught out at CB, in fact I believe his best position would be a defensive midfielder. So if you are saying we need another 2 centre backs because no of ours are good enough in that position at least it would be fairer. As for 442, we seemed to have done ok in the league with it and created a number of good chances especially playing the wonky. It hasn't hurt City either.

100% agree with steffs comments on Dawson and I would like another captain appointed....Sandro for me.

You make decent points regarding our other defenders but I have absolutley no faith in M Dawson....he has consistently been sh*te all season and been responsible for many goals conceded.....not by being outdone by brilliance....but by having shi*e positioning and losing physical tussles....

more than anything for me a priority is to phase him out and give the armband to someone who inspires and raises the games of others....Dawson im afraid fulfills neither requirement.

 

[We are Tottenham]

Agree.. we played like scared rabbits at times...very slow to get into tackling them back. Its no good standing off them the way we did.

 

[Robspur12]

100% agree with steffs comments on Dawson and I would like another captain appointed....Sandro for me.

You make decent points regarding our other defenders but I have absolutley no faith in M Dawson....he has consistently been sh*te all season and been responsible for many goals conceded.....not by being outdone by brilliance....but by having shi*e positioning and losing physical tussles....

more than anything for me a priority is to phase him out and give the armband to someone who inspires and raises the games of others....Dawson im afraid fulfills neither requirement.

We will have to agree to disagree. I would say the crap system we played for much of the season was the reason we conceded so many goals. We have fullbacks bombing up the pitch and no holding midfielder bar Sandro. We play better at the back when daws plays IMO. Remember verts and caulker vs Leeds last year in the cup, or Capoue and chiriches vs west ham in the league cup. Granted he needs protection in front of him but then so does merte****ter and john terry. I guarantee if you get rid of Daws it will not solve all our defensive problems. Watch again how arsenal defend so well as a team so they rarely leave their centre backs exposed. When they do the opposition score such as Aston Villa at the effeminates.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Agreed 100 percent. For now, all I want to see is a bit of bite from our players in games like these. As for the manager? All I want from him currently is perhaps more game-time for Lamela.

Would you like Pulis as manager?

I completely get what you are saying. And its an excellent point. So long as its about attitude and winning. That we have to cultivate that win at all costs attitude. I don't think fouling and complaining are the answer, they are the by product.

Ferguson's ethic built on Scottish toughness, them against us, and sheer complete determination is undoubtedly something 'we' - spurs football team, or anyone wanting to achieve something - can learn from.

 

[Nigeyman]

We will have to agree to disagree. I would say the crap system we played for much of the season was the reason we conceded so many goals. We have fullbacks bombing up the pitch and no holding midfielder bar Sandro. We play better at the back when daws plays IMO. Remember verts and caulker vs Leeds last year in the cup, or Capoue and chiriches vs west ham in the league cup. Granted he needs protection in front of him but then so does merte****ter and john terry. I guarantee if you get rid of Daws it will not solve all our defensive problems. Watch again how arsenal defend so well as a team so they rarely leave their centre backs exposed. When they do the opposition score such as Aston Villa at the effeminates.

Yes I agree Daws needs better protection....interestingly we havent conceded loads overall but have been smashed by City & Liverpool.......Quick & Clever Movement and daws is utterly toilet.

In fact I hate this....I love him for what he has done over the years...its not easy for me to slate daws...perhaps when I am angry after a bad result.

either way I stand by my views...he is not the captain material we need and he is the worst of all the first choice cb's of the top 8 teams.....yep we need to work as a team better when it comes to defending but it doesnt hide the truth for me......Daws needs phasing out....

so yeah agree to disagree.

 

[DHSF]

I think the only reason there's a more relaxed attitude is perhaps because it is TS's first weeks in the job and everyone sees the injury list. In essence it is perhaps unfair on the previous, but the previous did himself no favors as we've discussed to death, plus TS deserves some time to be viewed properly.

As for the bolded bit above…well I'm not so sure, and I DO worry. It's why Feb 2012 will haunt me forever, just as 'that' Villa game did. It was a massive massive massive chance to leapfrog them AND keep them out of the CL.

Its a post for another thread perhaps but I think people are jumping way overboard over this defeat. I can see what TS wants and desires and he wants a more fluid and transitional type of play and for that to work he needs players who will perform. Today, Ade was shockingly bad amongst one or two others for example Dembele who I didnt think performed well. I didnt think Lennon played too well either and Rose was well Rose.

Basically this was a team who looked leggy, weary and tired and TS has been unable to change things around over the past few games because the best defender is injured, best DM is injured, no proper LB, no RB back up and no striker back up.

Today was a culmination of that grueling schedule.

 

[thfcsteff]

To avoid 'upping' my post count, just wanted to say some very valid comments from Robspur and DHSF…have to say, despite the disappointment of defeat today, it's been a really decent series of exchanges and different opinions today IMO...

 

[Lilywhite]

**** me that was painful to sit through. Luckily I'd had a few bevvies beforehand but that didn't help too much. Outplayed from start to finish. Always gutted when they do that to us but it seems to happen every time we go to the Library.

Tim got his tactics completely wrong. Buck stops with him, he put out an attacking but ultimately toothless - every man and his dog could have told you that - team that was never likely to wrestle any control of the match and therefore was always likely to be beaten comfortably.

None of the players turned up for us however. Was very disappointed considering it was a cup game at our rivals. Effort was lacking in some parts, quality in most others.

We were decent on the counter in bits and pieces without really threatening their goal nearly enough.

A miserable week at work beckons. Meh.

 

[We are Tottenham]

100% agree with you Dubai ...were weak...the right mentality is just not there.....our fans .also very poor at home... least some do not take supporting the club in a serious manner...just an opinion ..but a mate who I spoke to earlier ..a complete neutral..said..spurs do not have the same winning mentality as **** or chelsea....anyway.

Coys:..............

 

[diego_maradona]

Agree with Steff on Dawson. Absolutely love the guy but he is so error prone it's unreal. Thing is he needs a steady partner. Ledley King and Dawson showed how good he could be. Daws and Vertonghen looked decent early doors. I think Lescott seems a good signing right now.

I was told constantly by posters that Rose has become a fantastic left back now. I doubted it and I still haven't seen any truth to it. The games v Arsenal in the league, today and United away have shown him to struggle quite badly against the better sides.

Could really do with Vertonghen and Kaboul back. And just for Lloris and 2 centre backs to establish some form of a relationship. Right now it is a recipe for an absolute disaster every time someone attacks us.

We have got to stop choking on these occasions. The number of times we have self imploded over the last year or so is ridiculous. We always do it. Rose today, Lloris and Vertonghen v City. Ekotto, Walker v Liverpool away, Walker v Man Utd at home. It just takes one attack from the opposition to expose the bag of nerves we are at the back. How do we eradicate this once and for all. Arsenal were making stupid mistakes regularly just over a year ago. Now, they are a lot more solid. Barely ever make any self imploding ridiculous errors any more. We must be the king of these right now. We should release a Spurs Gaffes DVD seeing as we are so fond of them.

I love Spurs but man it is such a character building life time experience. Just when you think things are finally better, we have:

-Sold one of the best players we've ever had
-lost twice to West Ham (at home)
-lost twice to Arsenal
-lost 5-0 to Liverpool (at home)
-lost 6-0 to Emirates Marketing Project
-Sacked our manager

It's lovely when it's occasionally interrupted by a win at OT and a very good away record this season. But boy it's a tough job being a Spurs fan

TOTTENHAM TIL I DIE