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OMT ** Tottenham Hotspur v Monaco ** 22/10/25.
- Thread starter NLS
- Start date
thfcsteff
Teddy Sheringham
I think we'd best get used to performances in and around this style for the forseeable future. This is how TF wants to create; via wide areas. Of course, what makes that problematic right now is that our left-hand side is simply not set-up for it.
I would like to see Frank utilise a different system to get the most out of the players he currently has available, but I won't hold my breath.
Muani needs to be give a start at CF, he showed more in 10-15 minutes than Richy did all night. IF Thomas wants to win games, we have to believe that we can play with two proper 8s as opposed to an 8, a 6, and a sixy sort of eightish who is not quite the same player post-Cash. One of those 8s has to be a player who can at least carry the ball/progress it. The point has been made many times that currently, without Romero, we are avoiding the middle of the pitch. Tonight it was pronounced and embarrassing. IF TF insists on persevering with this system, he has to put Johnson on the left, not because he is an answer out there but because he delivers more end production; tonight he missed a chance that when in rhythm he buries, but he was in position to miss it. I remain unconvinced by Odobert. I thought Spence's cameo tonight was poor. Gray was excellent for me, Lucas had an OK game but again, why were we not giving him the ball in deep areas and allowing him to progress; were we that afraid of Monaco's pressing???
It's an away point in the CL and I'll take that all day, plus I understand how many injuries we have and how disruptive it is. However, these sorts of displays are not up to it...
I would like to see Frank utilise a different system to get the most out of the players he currently has available, but I won't hold my breath.
Muani needs to be give a start at CF, he showed more in 10-15 minutes than Richy did all night. IF Thomas wants to win games, we have to believe that we can play with two proper 8s as opposed to an 8, a 6, and a sixy sort of eightish who is not quite the same player post-Cash. One of those 8s has to be a player who can at least carry the ball/progress it. The point has been made many times that currently, without Romero, we are avoiding the middle of the pitch. Tonight it was pronounced and embarrassing. IF TF insists on persevering with this system, he has to put Johnson on the left, not because he is an answer out there but because he delivers more end production; tonight he missed a chance that when in rhythm he buries, but he was in position to miss it. I remain unconvinced by Odobert. I thought Spence's cameo tonight was poor. Gray was excellent for me, Lucas had an OK game but again, why were we not giving him the ball in deep areas and allowing him to progress; were we that afraid of Monaco's pressing???
It's an away point in the CL and I'll take that all day, plus I understand how many injuries we have and how disruptive it is. However, these sorts of displays are not up to it...
HarryBreadbap
Calum Davenport
That was one hundred percent dogbrick.
For all Frank's pitch side laptops, chewing of gum and running out of the dugout the byline there has been no improvement.
I don't give a fudge about our XG factor, i want an entertainment factor.
This football isn't any better than the twenty two games we lost last season.
For all Frank's pitch side laptops, chewing of gum and running out of the dugout the byline there has been no improvement.
I don't give a fudge about our XG factor, i want an entertainment factor.
This football isn't any better than the twenty two games we lost last season.
SpurMeUp
Tommy Harmer
Haha what a sense of expectation. We finished bottom of the PL last season. And with key players missing and new young players settling you expect us to click away in the CL? That we didn’t lose and clearly have lots of room for improvement should give you cheer.
Grays_1890
Tommy Harmer
We have the most mental fanbase in footy and it's not even close
metalgear
Chris Jones
i am fine with a CL away draw
this is the squad that finished 17th last season, plus two ready and two potential additions.
its still not enough to compete with the top 8, games remaining are tough, only one with a high win probablity
** edited with correct fixtures**
Tuesday 4 November– FC Copenhagen (H) – 8pm UK
Wednesday 26 November – Paris Saint-Germain (A) – 8pm UK
Tuesday 9 December – Slavia Prague (H) – 8pm UK
Tuesday 20 January – Borussia Dortmund (H) – 8pm UK
Wednesday 28 January – Eintracht Frankfurt (A) – 8pm UK
** **
Hopefully TF learns from this CL league adventure to get to know the squad weaknesses; Paratici is official and am looking forward to the next 3 windows
this is the squad that finished 17th last season, plus two ready and two potential additions.
its still not enough to compete with the top 8, games remaining are tough, only one with a high win probablity
** edited with correct fixtures**
Tuesday 4 November– FC Copenhagen (H) – 8pm UK
Wednesday 26 November – Paris Saint-Germain (A) – 8pm UK
Tuesday 9 December – Slavia Prague (H) – 8pm UK
Tuesday 20 January – Borussia Dortmund (H) – 8pm UK
Wednesday 28 January – Eintracht Frankfurt (A) – 8pm UK
** **
Hopefully TF learns from this CL league adventure to get to know the squad weaknesses; Paratici is official and am looking forward to the next 3 windows
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thfcsteff
Teddy Sheringham
What? Did I miss something? Are going to Birmingham and not Everton at the weekend?
Daisuk
Colin Calderwood
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Paul Stalteri
I really think that people aren’t criticising a solid point away; from a coaching staff that are new in post. I think most are criticising a style that is really plain to see.
Our offence was a deep six, and a high 4, with a huge gap in the middle, and there was literally no plan to get the ball to the front 4 other than a hoof to Kudus or maybe Richy. And that might be fine if not for the fact we were saved by Vicario tonight, it wasn’t like we were actually solid or shut them out in any meaningful way.
We’ve had ‘turgid’ before, where it’s looked like possession for possession’s sake. And we’ve had Santini style bus parking. This isn’t that. And there’s definitely spells where it looks quite good. But it’s hard to get away from the fact that this is a feature of Frank’s decisions. I don’t think it’s a bug that is worked out with more time. He’s choosing that 6 deep 4 up shape. He’s choosing to play Bentancur and Palinha and having them make sideways passes. This can be changed with different selections and different instructions. But it’s definitely what he wants.
I think a couple of things about this; first is that in some ways, this is very much the league this season. Duels. Set pieces. Direct play. So he’s on trend. But I would say other good teams are exploiting set pieces while still having something of a possession game, which we are just not demonstrating whatsoever right now.
So that brings me to, maybe there is a method in this for Frank in that he is deliberately trying to create a solid identity to almost counteract what the players would have had as a self image last season of conceding more goals. I don’t believe it is ‘fix the foundations and eventually the intricate attacking play comes’, because he could implement more intricate play right now if he wanted to. But if he is establishing a culture of being solid and hard to beat, so that the players have that self image; and it’s then part of the Tottenham culture, I sort of get it. Some teams get taken over by new managers but retain the good and bad traits that are the consequences of the previous regime’s leadership. Slot at Liverpool is probably an example of retaining a lot of positive Klopp traits. And if Frank feels he needs to rid the squad of a self image that would consider conceding reasonable as long as we score many more, I can see why he’d want to change that mentality and have them motivated a different way.
I’d be curious to know when he thinks the right time is to make the shift to better attacking play. Because we aren’t Brentford and it shouldn’t take that long. And we’re sort of getting results. But we could have easily lost this game, and we’re dropping a lot of points at home.
So in summary, I don’t think it’s suddenly going to click into place, as if it just takes time, because it’s very obvious that what we’re seeing is deliberate. My question is when, if ever, is Frank going to choose to evolve the style?
metalgear
Chris Jones
oops! edited, thanksThose are not our fixtures.
It's all good, no problem. What I meant was that Richarlison doesn't seem to have any of the specialties needed to play up top alone. He often looks half a second too late for a poacher, his shooting isn't all that, he doesn't have the awareness or even strength to be a reliable target man, and... he's way too reactive and lacks the what-if to drag defenders out of position, creating space for others that the aforementioned Kane was exceptionally good at - as an example of someone with a footballing brain who used it to do just that. I seem to recall we had a season where even the receptionist was on the scoresheet, largely because of him.
I did not mean to imply that he, like Kane, should or even needs to have ALL of those traits. On their own, one or a couple of those strengths could've compensated for the lack of the others, but it doesn't look like he has ANY of them. If so, we should have seen it by now. Paired with our sad lack of proactive movement and a midfield unable to provide on a platter, he's left looking lost most of the time, making his weaknesses painfully obvious. He's a fair bit of a baller, but that's the least important skill to have in the role he's supposed to play. Perhaps if moved further back, I don't know. He's also ok in the air, the few times he's in the right spot. Richarlison is not a bad footballer, but I don't think he's what we need the way we play, and never has been. A goal or two once in a while doesn't change that for me.
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Bishop
Paul Robinson
MuanI at Spurs is not the first time I've seen him play. I have seen and know his ability level just like I've seen and know Richy's.
DeanoAustin
Paul Walsh
Ah yeah, I think Frank should get this season and, as long as he finishes top half, should get next season too. And I see the sense in making us defensively solid as a starting point.
But our attacking play has to improve. He’ll come under pressure if performances continue like this in the new year. It’s not an enjoyable watch and, while I take your point about the missing players, I don’t think it’s all personnel related. I’ve been to the Wolves and Villa games and, to be honest, they were a chore. I also suspect that if our attacking play doesn’t get better, results will catch up on us and, if that happens, the crowd will turn quickly. Rightly or wrongly, that’s modern football.
I’m not asking for us to become Brazil in the next few months by the way. Just better offensively than we’ve been recently.
Muttley
Ruel Fox
When I think back to last night's game, I think I saw the following:
1) Porro and Kudus no longer working as an offensive partnership. It was juts Kudus doing it on his own with no real doubling up and stretching up. It was Kudus that was being doubled up on. Gray and Odobert trying their hardest but not convincing down the left.
2) Palhinha and Bents just not working as a partnership, Palhinha just looking awful on the ball. I know everyone assumes that it needs to be Palhinha and one other in the base of our midfield. I'm not convinced yet. A lot of our lack of possession happens in and around Palhinha. He sometimes looks a yard off the pace as well.
3) Bergval looking like a lost sheep at times. I'm to be convinced that his best position is ahead of a double pivot. I think he almost needs to be part of it.
4) How crisp and precise their passing was compared to ours. This one is not about tactics. It's about the ability to get the ball straight under, get your head up and make an accurate pass to a team mate. Makes me wonder how much one touch stuff we're doing in training.
5) The sorry state of refereeing was also in play last night. Lost count of the amount of times one of our players was about to get away only to be pulled back or have the feet taken. Kudus had some rough treatment. The record books show that there was one yellow in that game for Richi. In reality, the entire game was spoilt by the referee not following the laws and letting the dark arts prevail. Would have loved to have seen that match up with a proper referee.
As mentioned by most of us, it's too early to be worried about Frank though. In some ways we should be ecstatic with that draw, especially with our GK's excellent performance.
1) Porro and Kudus no longer working as an offensive partnership. It was juts Kudus doing it on his own with no real doubling up and stretching up. It was Kudus that was being doubled up on. Gray and Odobert trying their hardest but not convincing down the left.
2) Palhinha and Bents just not working as a partnership, Palhinha just looking awful on the ball. I know everyone assumes that it needs to be Palhinha and one other in the base of our midfield. I'm not convinced yet. A lot of our lack of possession happens in and around Palhinha. He sometimes looks a yard off the pace as well.
3) Bergval looking like a lost sheep at times. I'm to be convinced that his best position is ahead of a double pivot. I think he almost needs to be part of it.
4) How crisp and precise their passing was compared to ours. This one is not about tactics. It's about the ability to get the ball straight under, get your head up and make an accurate pass to a team mate. Makes me wonder how much one touch stuff we're doing in training.
5) The sorry state of refereeing was also in play last night. Lost count of the amount of times one of our players was about to get away only to be pulled back or have the feet taken. Kudus had some rough treatment. The record books show that there was one yellow in that game for Richi. In reality, the entire game was spoilt by the referee not following the laws and letting the dark arts prevail. Would have loved to have seen that match up with a proper referee.
As mentioned by most of us, it's too early to be worried about Frank though. In some ways we should be ecstatic with that draw, especially with our GK's excellent performance.
Lemonade Money
Andy Thompson
The smell of entitlement is strong in here. Rinse and repeat.
metalgear
Chris Jones
I observed those in the villa game too...
1. i think there is a lack of chemistry (clash of egos?) between porro and kudus
2 and 3. The midfield runs generally under TF have been undisciplined or random - Sarr, Bentancur, Bergvall and even Palhinha. I don't see a pattern and neither do the players ahead of them, so it often goes wasted
4. fitness - we seemed to lag in fitness in all the EPL matches i've seen so far
5. dark arts - if you can't beat them join them !
Muttley
Ruel Fox
On 5 we have to be 2 pronged. As you say, you have to join them as the first option. As the second and as football stakeholders, we must never stop complaining about the state of officiating. Refereeing is changing the outcomes of so many games and not for the better.
I hadn't really thought about fitness but we definitely don't seem as sharp in these little moments as some of our opposition players. I think someone used the analagy about Xavi. It's like there is jetlag involved with our players at times.
Of course we have to give Frank time. But the issue is, this is his usual style - Had our players had Brentford kits on for our games this season no one would have batted an eyelid. Yes we have players missing. But you mentioned (and previously advocated) Ireola as manager. Had he got the players Frank has available right now, he would absolutely be playing a better style of football than we are seeing now, injuries or no injuries. As would Glasner.
There is some real big assumptions and blind faith around this whole theory that Frank is just being defensive for now to teach our team how defend. It is absolute dreamland stuff, this is his MO and one season of more swashbuckling football in the Championship doesn't change that. Yes styles can take a while to really see the benefits of, but you still see what that style is and what is trying to be achieved. We are so predictable currently it's shocking, hope for Kudus to do something/ a set piece or it's not happening. And considering Kudus has two or three men on him all the time because teams know how one dimensional we are, you would think there would be some plan to utilise the space we have elsewhere but we don't.
No one is Frank out, losing their heads or whatever other accusations get thrown around when you dare be critical. These are simply observations, it was great in the first few weeks when we was an unknown and now every man and his dog knows our very basic tactics. These are things Frank must work out and fairly soon, because as much as I personally will give him a fair bit of time I know our fan base in that stadium and the masses will not be so generous....
Legohamster
Les Medley
I guess the question is do you trust Frank to move us on from the disaster of the league form in the previous couple of years
I do, he's a clever man and will know we need to improve and how to do it.
We need a couple of windows.
I do, he's a clever man and will know we need to improve and how to do it.
We need a couple of windows.
Legohamster
Les Medley
Honestly. Our midfield is vastly over rated
We've got Sarr/Berg/Gray who are potential
Paul who is the most consistent we have
Bent is just inconsistent
I'd bin 2 of them plus Biss