Nuno Espírito Santo - Sacked

[Finney Is Back]

It was a little tongue in cheek but overall my point is he hasn’t had anything like the full use of the most expensive resources he has been provided or inherited. Like @bedfordspur , if we continue to churn out the Palace performance over 90 minutes, without the caveat of the missing players / limited time to implement his ideas then I’ll be calling for his head too!

I think he deserves some slack for the hand he has been dealt and actually returning 9 points out of 12. We haven’t actually conceded with 11 men in the league which given what was happening at the end of last season could be an important first step before he looks to integrate a more creative midfield with Gil, Ndombele and Lo Celso all offering something different to the 3 he has used so far.

Whilst for me results are the ultimate barometer Levy himself went on record about the new manager and our DNA to play attacking football. It must be part of the longer term target for the manager?

You think that Levy's statement was anything more than an attempt to appease the natives who had become slightly restless?

I think Nuno deserves the whole season no matter what and if he achieves a par finish (6th/7th) then he probably deserves a second season. I just hope that his tactics so far aren't his planned long term tactics as there is a big difference between finishing 6th/7th while watching an entertaining team and boring yourself to that finish.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Zaha ahead of Moura
Ayew ahead of Dele as LWF
Any of their midfielders ahead of Winks.
Any of their defenders ahead of Davies!

Was impressed with Mitchell too but unfair to judge Emerson on his first game.
Really it was on the ball we lost the initiative and with 11 men I actually thought we defended really well, when you consider the reshuffle that had debutant and academy product, then losing the oft maligned Dier for another relatively ineperienced at prem level cb who hadn’t played all season.

I’d be really disappointed to see a similar line up again though, Dele was ineffective higher up, our midfield had no creativity or power and without Son our lack of goal threat from the right becomes more of a weakness.

It was the manager's choice to play Dele LWF. He had been the best of our midfield 3 in the first three games and we had an actual left winger on the bench.
It was the manager's choice to play Winks in the centre of midfield.... He could've left that unit alone from our first three games by having Dele in there. He also could've used Ndombele instead of Winks.

I agree that with 11 men we defended well. It is just a shame that defending was all we did for the entire 90+ minutes of the game.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

A strategy whereby, against a lower half team, you plan to get to half time at 0-0 is fundamentally flawed. We should be looking to win those games however by reducing it to a 45 min match, we're reducing our chances of winning

I don’t think we are. It’s no more likely to win than trying to go in half time a couple ahead, but failing to score, draining the players and playing into the opposition’s hands by leaving us open on the break.

No strategy is ultimately totally right or totally wrong. Sometimes it goes for you, sometimes it goes against. In the key moment against Palace, it went against us.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

All well and good other than the fact that we looked even worse in the second half yesterday than we did the first (including while the game was 11 v 11).

Well, if we were actually able to bring Gil on maybe that would have been the moment we really went for it?

Or maybe it was just a brick day? They will happen.

 

[glasgowspur]

It was the manager's choice to play Dele LWF. He had been the best of our midfield 3 in the first three games and we had an actual left winger on the bench.
It was the manager's choice to play Winks in the centre of midfield.... He could've left that unit alone from our first three games by having Dele in there. He also could've used Ndombele instead of Winks.

I agree that with 11 men we defended well. It is just a shame that defending was all we did for the entire 90+ minutes of the game.

I know there's principles and all that stuff to consider, but under current conditions would playing tanguy with PEH, skipp and dele really be a bad idea.
Those three would more than make up his lack of work rate, it would show him off to potential suitors and it is purely temporary fix in pretty bad situation.
Principle is all very well, but they aren't as valuable as points.

 

[AdamB]

I don’t think we are. It’s no more likely to win than trying to go in half time a couple ahead, but failing to score, draining the players and playing into the opposition’s hands by leaving us open on the break.

No strategy is ultimately totally right or totally wrong. Sometimes it goes for you, sometimes it goes against. In the key moment against Palace, it went against us.

I'd like to think we're fit enough to play 90 mins. I dont see the need to have to sit back just so that we conserve energy for the last 30 mins. I accept that playing hell-for-leather football for 90 mins isnt viable, at least apart from the odd game here and there, but the flipside to that is that we shouldnt have to hold off as much as we did against Palace and Wolves

 

[AdamB]

I think Nuno deserves the whole season no matter what and if he achieves a par finish (6th/7th) then he probably deserves a second season. I just hope that his tactics so far aren't his planned long term tactics as there is a big difference between finishing 6th/7th while watching an entertaining team and boring yourself to that finish.

Agreed

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'd like to think we're fit enough to play 90 mins. I dont see the need to have to sit back just so that we conserve energy for the last 30 mins. I accept that playing hell-for-leather football for 90 mins isnt viable, at least apart from the odd game here and there, but the flipside to that is that we shouldnt have to hold off as much as we did against Palace and Wolves

We didn’t hold off against Wolves
They barely mustered a shot after 60 mins

 

[StephenH]

We made Palace look far better than they are. We had mitigation with the international break but Nuno will not be given many days like Saturday in the end he will be annihilated by the press then the ‘supporters’ will do their worst and Nuno’s days will be done.

 

[AdamB]

We didn’t hold off against Wolves
They barely mustered a shot after 60 mins

We barely got within 30 yards of their goal in the first half! Look at the heatmap:

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/match/wo...v-tottenham-hotspur/dtuugix59m7q1yhkgenmokkr8

 

[MKSpur]

You think that Levy's statement was anything more than an attempt to appease the natives who had become slightly restless?

I think Nuno deserves the whole season no matter what and if he achieves a par finish (6th/7th) then he probably deserves a second season. I just hope that his tactics so far aren't his planned long term tactics as there is a big difference between finishing 6th/7th while watching an entertaining team and boring yourself to that finish.

Possibly but he’d be setting himself up for more dissent if he openly doesn’t deliver on it (Although if we won every match 1-0 I’m not sure it will be raised, the style of play debate for me is always magnified when results are bad / the style itself is ineffective.)

I also think our transfer window leaves me to believe that our ambition is to consolidate Europa. It may be why we ended up with Nuno, who may feel this wouldn’t be the worst achievement on his cv whilst getting exposure to a bigger team.

I’d agree that pragmatic football may be less exciting , especially if the results aren’t getting CL, unless it meant a disproportionate number of victories over the bigger / rival teams (Also think home performances will come under wider scrutiny and Mourinho would have been under more pressure if fans were there last season)

As long as we remain in the hunt for Europa Nuno will get the season imo. I thought the potential to lose at city and Wolves would have possibly put him under some unfair early pressure and the response to the Palace result makes me worry that patience is limited in some sections of the fan base.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We barely got within 30 yards of their goal in the first half! Look at the heatmap:

https://www.goal.com/en-gb/match/wo...v-tottenham-hotspur/dtuugix59m7q1yhkgenmokkr8

You said we were holding on though..
That infers they were attacking us late on
It really wasn’t the case
We scored and were quite comfortable

 

[MKSpur]

It was the manager's choice to play Dele LWF. He had been the best of our midfield 3 in the first three games and we had an actual left winger on the bench.
It was the manager's choice to play Winks in the centre of midfield.... He could've left that unit alone from our first three games by having Dele in there. He also could've used Ndombele instead of Winks.

I agree that with 11 men we defended well. It is just a shame that defending was all we did for the entire 90+ minutes of the game.

Fair points and I certainly said the same before kick off re the winks and Dele selections. Whatever the motivation was let’s just hope it has been a lesson learned. If Lo Celso and Ndombele need to be on the naughty step a bit longer (although I do wonder how effective this approach is per @glasgowspur’s comment too) then the bare minimum has to be to return Dele to cm and Gil at LWF while Son is out.

 

[glasgowspur]

Fair points and I certainly said the same before kick off re the winks and Dele selections. Whatever the motivation was let’s just hope it has been a lesson learned. If Lo Celso and Ndombele need to be on the naughty step a bit longer (although I do wonder how effective this approach is per @glasgowspur’s comment too) then the bare minimum has to be to return Dele to cm and Gil at LWF while Son is out.

I have no gripe with lo celso. I don't know the full story but from what I can see he has done the correct thing and we (and villa?) have been stitched up.

 

[MKSpur]

We made Palace look far better than they are. We had mitigation with the international break but Nuno will not be given many days like Saturday in the end he will be annihilated by the press then the ‘supporters’ will do their worst and Nuno’s days will be done.

The mitigation of losing a batch of key players, then a cb then another one sent off resulting in our 5th choice coming on and spueing up a handball pen to finally break the deadlock?

You could just as well say if he has more days like his previous 3 league games he will get built up by press and fans to the same levels of hysteric worship reserved for Klopp and Fraudiola!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The mitigation of losing a batch of key players, then a cb then another one sent off resulting in our 5th choice coming on and spueing up a handball pen to finally break the deadlock?

You could just as well say if he has more days like his previous 3 league games he will get built up by press and fans to the same levels of hysteric worship reserved for Klopp and Fraudiola!

If he wins 3/4 of the games 1 nil we will look brilliant
But that’s never gonna happen
And even then fans would complain
Nuno needs time but fans don’t like giving time
Christmas is the first benchmark for him IMO

 

[MKSpur]

I have no gripe with lo celso. I don't know the full story but from what I can see he has done the correct thing and we (and villa?) have been stitched up.

I don’t know the full story either, just conscious he hasn’t started him yet anyway and there is talk of a fine being imposed. Worst case scenario we stick with Dele and have more of a effervescent threat to replace Son

 

[MKSpur]

If he wins 3/4 of the games 1 nil we will look brilliant
But that’s never gonna happen
And even then fans would complain
Nuno needs time but fans don’t like giving time
Christmas is the first benchmark for him IMO

That’s just what has happened! And as little as we offered in the ball against Palace we didn’t actually look like conceding with our heavily rotated defence. Then thing for me is whether he shuffles the pack to enable us to dominate the ball, especially at home. At least when we have taken the lead we haven’t sat back, just haven’t quite managed to spring the trap again or finish well enough to get the second. Again this was without the 3 or 4 more creative options being available, which I’m hoping is about integration and fitness rather than an overall hugely risk averse strategy.

Christmas is always my usual benchmark too, unless we get done by 4 or 5 at home a couple of times.

 

[AdamB]

You said we were holding on though..
That infers they were attacking us late on
It really wasn’t the case
We scored and were quite comfortable

No, I said "I accept that playing hell-for-leather football for 90 mins isnt viable, at least apart from the odd game here and there, but the flipside to that is that we shouldnt have to hold off as much as we did against Palace and Wolves"

'Hold-off' as in sit back

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No, I said "I accept that playing hell-for-leather football for 90 mins isnt viable, at least apart from the odd game here and there, but the flipside to that is that we shouldnt have to hold off as much as we did against Palace and Wolves"

'Hold-off' as in sit back

Ok
Never heard the term hold off before
Sit back, yes