Rossi22
Pedro Mendes
We have a bigger and better squad than Southampton.
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Next Spurs Manager v.2
- Thread starter Gutter Boy
- Start date
We have a bigger and better squad than Southampton.
I
indianspur
Guest
but we are a top 4 challenging team and this is their second season in the PL.....its normal that our dire is most likely to be their good. Just look at our squad compared to theirs
Aren't we looking at characteristics of a managers style, the type of football they want to play rather than solely judging them on results.
Do people feel confident that Sherwood could have got as many points with Southampton? Hypothetical of course.
Remember Rodgers and Martinez hardly were competing for the top 4 with Wigan or Swansea. Poch would surely do a lot better with our squad and calibre of players
Do people feel confident that Sherwood could have got as many points with Southampton? Hypothetical of course.
Remember Rodgers and Martinez hardly were competing for the top 4 with Wigan or Swansea. Poch would surely do a lot better with our squad and calibre of players
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indianspur
Guest
yeah id consider these to be very important.
chancer
Gudni Bergsson
braineclipse
Willie Hall
Edit: Most of the points I made were provided by others while I was typing. I'll just leave it up here anyway...
Alright, but please accept that it's not always easy to identify what are throwaway comments and what are actual points being discussed in a conversation like this. You seemed to argue partly based on those results and describing that as part of the "immediate context". If you include "throwaway comments" in your argumentation, don't be surprised when people take them seriously unless you make it clear that this isn't a part of your argument.
Southampton players with more than 5 league appearances this season:
Adam Lallana
Jose Fonte
Luke Shaw
Jay Rodriguez
Rickie Lambert
Dejan Lovren
Morgan Schneiderlin
Artur Boruc
Steven Davis
Jack Cork
Nathaniel Clyne
Calum Chambers
Victor Wanyama
James Ward-Prowse
Pablo Daniel Osvaldo
Maya Yoshida
Paulo Gazzaniga
Some very good and some very promising players in there. I know myself and some others have argued for us signing Lambert in the past. Shaw has obviously been highly rated all along and we all now rate Lallana, Rodriguez, Ward-Prowse, Lovren and Schneiderlin at least to varying degrees. But compare that to our squad. There's a massive gulf in quality and experience imo. We have Brazilian internationals, the French captain, 3 Belgian internationals and so on and so on.
Southampton are essentially a mid table side, it's unsurprising that a mid table side has a goal difference that's close-ish to 0. Something other than that would be surprising. We're CL chasers, for us to have a goal difference that's barely out of the red is something quite different. Look at the league table, look at the goal differences moving along the continuum as you look down the table. Find the teams that doesn't fit the expected pattern. It's not Southampton.
I have no doubts that Pochettino has had some very talented players to work with. He's made those talented players function in a system that's seen most of those players improving. That's a sign of quality for me. He's been getting the best out of a group of players where most of them wouldn't have been 5th choice for us in the summer transfer window a year ago. That to me is more important than results over a relatively small sample size like what we have under Sherwood or Pulis at Palace.
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braineclipse
Willie Hall
Spot on imo.
Southampton have looked great at times, vulnerable at other times. The great at times can't really be expected to happen by itself for a team at their level, but the vulnerable part is almost inevitable.
The fact that Pochettino is brave in the style of play he prefers is a good thing for me.
Excellent points you are all making.
I keep saying, its all very well saying that Poch has all these promising players, but Rodriguez, Lambert and Lallana (all of whom are over 24 years old and in Lambert's case over 30) weren't even being talked about as major prospects before Poch took over, now all 3 will be on the plane to Brazil with the England squad (or would have been in Rodriguez's case).
Lallana has gone from being decent to being talked about in almost certain terms to join a top 4 challenger this summer.
Fact is as well that their first choice midfield this season has been Cork, Schneiderlin and Davis - yet some people seem to think that Poch's stunning passing football is just "to be expected" with the "quality squad" that Southampton have - total rubbish, IMO he's done a brilliant job with Saints.
I keep saying, its all very well saying that Poch has all these promising players, but Rodriguez, Lambert and Lallana (all of whom are over 24 years old and in Lambert's case over 30) weren't even being talked about as major prospects before Poch took over, now all 3 will be on the plane to Brazil with the England squad (or would have been in Rodriguez's case).
Lallana has gone from being decent to being talked about in almost certain terms to join a top 4 challenger this summer.
Fact is as well that their first choice midfield this season has been Cork, Schneiderlin and Davis - yet some people seem to think that Poch's stunning passing football is just "to be expected" with the "quality squad" that Southampton have - total rubbish, IMO he's done a brilliant job with Saints.
Superted
Jonathan Woodgate
If Rafa is available and keen to come and we don't snap him up, then I give up.
He won the Champs League with Liverplol for ****s sake. Liverplol. Champions of Europe. He did that.
Who got under his skin? Fergie that's who. And he's gone. So no one gets under his skin. That's a fact. Jack.
He's probably only behind Wenger and Jose in active managers with Premier League pedigree.
You can stick LVG, FDB, RDB, Pulis, Moyes, Tiesto, Speedy Gonzalez and whoever else is in the mix right up the Sol Campbell. I don't want another season of some amateur finding his way, "ooh we gotta give him time because absolutely useless manager + time = success, bro". No.
I'm sick of taking gambles with the most important appointment we can make at our club.
Rafa is as close to a sure bet as we'll get.
He won the Champs League with Liverplol for ****s sake. Liverplol. Champions of Europe. He did that.
Who got under his skin? Fergie that's who. And he's gone. So no one gets under his skin. That's a fact. Jack.
He's probably only behind Wenger and Jose in active managers with Premier League pedigree.
You can stick LVG, FDB, RDB, Pulis, Moyes, Tiesto, Speedy Gonzalez and whoever else is in the mix right up the Sol Campbell. I don't want another season of some amateur finding his way, "ooh we gotta give him time because absolutely useless manager + time = success, bro". No.
I'm sick of taking gambles with the most important appointment we can make at our club.
Rafa is as close to a sure bet as we'll get.
markysimmo
Johnny nice-tits
I think we need somebody who is used to being in the top 4, Rafa could be the one !!!
I'm not asking you to buy anything, its my opinion.
So am I expected to believe that Pochettino is now akin to Paul Daniels? He suddenly plotted up and turned them into these wonderful players, some of them midway or 3/4s through their career? Nonsense.
You are doing those players a great disservice by saying that it wasn't already there and it is a system allowing them to look good and display their natural inate qualities. You cannot suddenly turn players who are not technically good on the ball, composed at receiving the ball under pressure into opposites. Its is too late down the line. Once you have reached a certain age then only minimal changes can occur in terms of the type of player you are. Those players must have already had that sort of ability and it has been cultivated and massaged not created but Pochettino.
Lambert looked great even in league 1, people were talking about him being a potential signing 4-5 years ago but no one wanted to take the gamble. Rodriguez had looked decent at Burnley for a few years and again, people had looked at him and werent sure whether to take the gamble. Lallana was being spoken about alongside Oxlade-Chamberlain when Southampton were in League 1 - again 4-5 years ago. Shaw was on everyones radar from the season before Southampton got promoted. None of these are surprises, people could see they were decent and able players before Pochettino came in. He didn't wave a wand and turn them into cultured footballers. He has done a very good job but please have some perspective.
You cannot go from suddenly being a Lee Cattermole type player to a cultured midfielder who is happy to take the ball whilst being pressured and be trusted to keep hold of it 100% better than you could before that manager came in.
Those players that play regularly for Southampton that show that are players that have come through the system at that club and have that talent but have been coached in that way from an early age like Lallana, Ward-Prowse, Chambers, Shaw and Schneiderlin combined with cute signings like Rodriguez, Ramirez, Clyne and Lovren who all fit that sort of style.
I haven't said that Sandro can't play it but I believe he, along with Paulinho as an example might well struggle to adapt to that specific style because they do like to hold onto the ball and take their time. I agree fully with Dembele, he does carry the ball and hold more often that not because the movement in front of him is so poor but he has the touch and the intellegence to play a major part in that style as does Eriksen and I would imagine Lamela as well.
As I have pretty much explained in my other replies, I am not against Pochettino coming in. But people need to be realistic and accept that it will take time for him to work out which players will and won't fit the system because in technical terms it is asking alot of individuals and some of those individuals will be exposed as not being up to the job. We aren't going to play free flowing, beautiful football overnight, especially since we have been set up in a rigid manner for the last 2 years with a system that is almost based on probability and percentages.
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Dicko
Michael Carrick
Just for the sake of discussion.. Could we do a Pros & Cons for Benitez?
Because his name makes me think of the guy that bought in a load of Spanish players (few great, some decent, most useless) and then rotated his team constantly for a record number of consecutive games to the ridicule of most pundits and fans...
Our OMT posters would have a meltdown with some of his team selections.
Because his name makes me think of the guy that bought in a load of Spanish players (few great, some decent, most useless) and then rotated his team constantly for a record number of consecutive games to the ridicule of most pundits and fans...
Our OMT posters would have a meltdown with some of his team selections.
chancer
Gudni Bergsson
Llalana Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Lallana
He has been a exceptionally promising player since his late teens, broke into the SCBC team at 19 or 20, was one of the best players in the Championship, getting in Team of Season for 2 seasons running, then started in PL when they were promoted in 11/12, where he impressed just as much under both Adkins and then Poch.
Rodriguez Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Rodriguez
So, another highly thought of player who Adkins/SCBC spotted, paid decent money for at the time, and Rod went on to be what they hoped he was - a very good young player.
Lambert:
He is a 1 in 2 stiker over his entire Southampton career of 206 games since 2009: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickie_Lambert
Schneiderlin has been at Southampton since 2008, and a regular there since he was 20. Stephen Davis has 64 full International caps. Cork was on Chelsea's books for 5 years up to his mid 20's, so the talent has always been there, and he's repped England at every level from U16 to U21.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Cork
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Schneiderlin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickie_Lambert
........................................
Every single one of these 6 players was at Southampton before Poch arrived and were the core of Adkins's squad.
Not for 1 second am I denigrating what Poch has done with them, nor am I saying he hasn't got them all to improve. Also, many of the performances mentioned above happened in Tier 2, not the PL.
But let's be very, very careful with this idea that they were ordinary players until Poch came along.
Ed: Libero above beat me to it.
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indianspur
Guest
yep, i see many fans moaning how much we miss modric and our passing hasnt been the same since he left and how we desperately need to replace him.......well, how the heck can a team like Saints pass teams off the park with midfielders like Cork, Schneiderlin, Davis and Wanayama?? Thats what i want at Spurs, for us not to be reliant on one player to provide attacking intelligent pass and move football. The team is the key.
Thank you Chancer, some realistic perspective. Please refer to my last post a few posts above.
I
indianspur
Guest
he might even deliver a trophy or two.....i just think he would have a hard time dealing with Levys famed transfer committee.
chancer
Gudni Bergsson
Haha
braineclipse
Willie Hall
I agree with Libero and Chancer that these weren't ordinary players.
However, Pochettino has gotten these talented players to function as a unit in a team.
If we leave the Martinez and Rodgers comparisons for a bit, how about comparing what Pochettino has done to what Redknapp did for us (although with somewhat different playing styles). Most people agree that players like Modric and Bale were always super talented players. As was King. There was nothing magical about picking up Gallas on a free, or signing Brad Friedel. These good players game to us and played well. Same with Ade and VdV at probably an even higher level.
Because Southampton have some talented players and they have been performing well it seems like some people are arguing that this was inevitable, but I would say that this is a very solid achievement.
We similarly have a lot of talented players. If we can find someone that can integrate these players in a system that works along with a few new key signings I think we really could be onto something. Essentially if Pochettino can repeat what he's done at Southampton at our level he would most likely be considered a success.
However, Pochettino has gotten these talented players to function as a unit in a team.
If we leave the Martinez and Rodgers comparisons for a bit, how about comparing what Pochettino has done to what Redknapp did for us (although with somewhat different playing styles). Most people agree that players like Modric and Bale were always super talented players. As was King. There was nothing magical about picking up Gallas on a free, or signing Brad Friedel. These good players game to us and played well. Same with Ade and VdV at probably an even higher level.
Because Southampton have some talented players and they have been performing well it seems like some people are arguing that this was inevitable, but I would say that this is a very solid achievement.
We similarly have a lot of talented players. If we can find someone that can integrate these players in a system that works along with a few new key signings I think we really could be onto something. Essentially if Pochettino can repeat what he's done at Southampton at our level he would most likely be considered a success.
braineclipse
Willie Hall
This could be a very interesting discussion.
I agree with whoever it was that pointed out to me that he's probably the lowest risk option of those that have been presented as plausible. He has a lot more PL experience and experience in general than just about all the other targets (and Sherwood of course). And he's been at least relatively successful most places he's been. When he hasn't been successful (at the end at Liverpool, Inter) I think there have been some mitigating circumstances.
For me the primary negatives are:
-He pretty much tends to revert to boring football very consistently. There was a period at Liverpool when they were free flowing. I think it was at the time when they had Torres in full form, Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano. But even at Liverpool it didn't take long for him to revert to a much more cautious style of play.
-Although he's had some massive success in the transfer market with players like Mascherano, Alonso and Torres he's also had a lot of misses. And the weaknesses in the Liverpool side (like the wide players) just kept on being weaknesses season after season despite considerable amounts of money being spent.
I find it very hard overall to argue against Benitez from a rational viewpoint. Particularly if, as it seems, LvG is no longer a plausible candidate for us. We probably have to be at least somewhat pragmatic with our approach considering our size and financial power and most managers are hit and miss in the transfer market.