Moussa Sissoko

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Sissoko has indeed got some limitations; but the fact is he brings an athleticism that few can match in our team: for example, how many players can run the distance he can and at the pace he can? I don't see why this cannot be acknowledged, plus the fact he is continually being used by Poch. Nkoudou is another that brings similar pace but doesn't make the bench most games, unlike Sissoko who as i say is seen by Poch as bringing more to the table, hence more involved.

Nkoudou = winger. Sissoko = CM. The comparison is irrelevant. And, as I said, the fact you keep leaning on it does more to disarm your point than anything else.

He is athletic. Yes. However, I would suggest his athletisism isnt such that it bears special mention. Its not so superior so as to be a defining trait.

However, a bit like the Nkoudou thing, when its all you have to argue with that in itself probably says a lot more than I need to. He is a footballer, not a runner at the athetics.

As to being brought on, again, I believe its because there is little other option - and that in time as other players become fit to play we will see this proven.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Nkoudou = winger. Sissoko = CM. The comparison is irrelevant. And, as I said, the fact you keep leaning on it does more to disarm your point than anything else.

He is athletic. Yes. However, I would suggest his athletisism isnt such that it bears special mention. Its not so superior so as to be a defining trait.

However, a bit like the Nkoudou thing, when its all you have to argue with that in itself probably says a lot more than I need to. He is a footballer, not a runner at the athetics.

As to being brought on, again, I believe its because there is little other option - and that in time as other players become fit to play we will see this proven.

Well we will have to see; as I say i believe he brings some qualities that most others in our squad do not (and no i don't mean the bouncing off the shin stuff!). I bring up Nkoudou because he is another pacy player and in recent times most on here have bemoaned our general lack of pace in our squad compared to our rivals and also the inability to lay on the break (which we are doing more these days).
Of course he is a footballer not a runner, but let's not pretend that most teams are midgets like Guardiola's Barca sides; in fact in this day and age it's often the opposite (or at least a heady mix of the two types: silky skills and brute strength). Those more 'athletic' skills are appreciated by Poch as much as anyone else as we all know..

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Who did the things that weren't pretty before he came on against Real?

Who did the running you talk about before he came on?

Who did those against Liverpool?

Dier.

 

[braineclipse]

What was controversial about what he said Sissoko brings to the team?

He's doing things that aren't pretty, making runs that others aren't making. That means players like Eriksen and Winks can do their thing.

To me the evidence points directly in the opposite direction. As illustrated by the Liverpool game and many other examples.

Most of last season Sissoko didn't play, we were excellent. Who did that running? Who did those not so pretty things?

 

[braineclipse]

Dier.

What about the Liverpool game? We had Dier there doing exactly the same thing, covering the areas to allow the more technical players to play. Dier isnt really much better on the ball than Sissoko, and at least Sissoko carries the ball forward when running with it. Controversial comments? Jeez, dont be over dramatic....

Dier plays a completely different role to Sissoko. And we've done perfectly fine without him too.

As others have pointed out Winks, Eriksen, Alli, Kane, Son all work their socks off. Most of them are capable of doing stuff that isn't pretty. They all have good or better movement. Hard work is a requirement for playing under Pochettino. Doing that is the absolute minimum standard.

He gets no participation trophy for that. Sissoki has done a job when others have been injured, for that he deserves some praise. He's nowhere near the quality of our regular starters though, pointing that out isn't hating on him. Pointing out that he was our worst player against Real isn't hating on him.

The faster better players are back to full fitness the better. I think he'll be lucky to be on our bench if we at any point have a full squad to choose from this season. I don't think that's hating on him.

 

[glorygloryeze]

He's doing things that aren't pretty, making runs that others aren't making. That means players like Eriksen and Winks can do their thing.

To me the evidence points directly in the opposite direction. As illustrated by the Liverpool game and many other examples.

Most of last season Sissoko didn't play, we were excellent. Who did that running? Who did those not so pretty things?

Sissoko brings raw pace and athleticism that most others don't bring. His ability to push back some of the opposition players i believe can often give more space to those other more skillful players to do their thing, especially when we're playing teams who like to press high and don't have much pace in their defence.

Son brought great pace vs Liverpool but we actively played differently in that game compared to previous seasons. An example where Sissoko's athleticism helped greatly was vs Emirates Marketing Project at home last season.

Sissoko has mostly played this season; have we dropped a level because of it?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Well we will have to see; as I say i believe he brings some qualities that most others in our squad do not (and no i don't mean the bouncing off the shin stuff!). I bring up Nkoudou because he is another pacy player and in recent times most on here have bemoaned our general lack of pace in our squad compared to our rivals and also the inability to lay on the break (which we are doing more these days).
Of course he is a footballer not a runner, but let's not pretend that most teams are midgets like Guardiola's Barca sides; in fact in this day and age it's often the opposite (or at least a heady mix of the two types: silky skills and brute strength). Those more 'athletic' skills are appreciated by Poch as much as anyone else as we all know..

I genuinely do not see these qualities that exist above and beyond our other players. Honestly I just think its a desperate grab at something to defend him with.

As with NKoudou, yes a cursory glance shows they both have pace, but as players they are simply not comparable so its something of a straw man.

We have been an excellent counter attacking side since before Pochettino came in, and more so with his influence. Before and since Sissoko, with and without him. He makes no meaningful difference in that regard. Especially as things break down with him as often than not.

Again, speaking of teams of midgets vs athletes - more straw man stuff. Even our smallest player will not be bullied, and frankly we have a team composed largely of athletes/big and strong players. Since Poch has arrived thw whole squad has become stronger and more athletic.

Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Wanyama, Dier, Dembele, Aurier, Kane are all big and tough players. The like of Rose while smaller are still hardy little buggers who stand up to challenges and put themselves about.

If this is the limit of the pro-Sissoko argument then there really is nothing else to add.

Other than, honestly, there isnt really an "anti" Sissoko argument - rather just recognition of his standing in the squad.

 

[harr1984]

Dier plays a completely different role to Sissoko. And we've done perfectly fine without him too.

As others have pointed out Winks, Eriksen, Alli, Kane, Son all work their socks off. Most of them are capable of doing stuff that isn't pretty. They all have good or better movement. Hard work is a requirement for playing under Pochettino. Doing that is the absolute minimum standard.

He gets no participation trophy for that. Sissoki has done a job when others have been injured, for that he deserves some praise. He's nowhere near the quality of our regular starters though, pointing that out isn't hating on him. Pointing out that he was our worst player against Real isn't hating on him.

The faster better players are back to full fitness the better. I think he'll be lucky to be on our bench if we at any point have a full squad to choose from this season. I don't think that's hating on him.

Thats the problem though, those supporting him arent far off suggesting that - most are saying he's been decent, and an important part of the squad which you cant argue with considering hes played in EVERY game this season - nothing more. Noone saying hes brilliant and is a guaranteed first XI player for us, far from it. But go back through the thread there are those spouting nonsense about how he cant kick a football, ball just bounces off his shin all the time blah blah which is an absolute load of shhhhh and that is why some have to spell out what he is doing......

 

[braineclipse]

Sissoko brings raw pace and athleticism that most others don't bring. His ability to push back some of the opposition players i believe can often give more space to those other more skillful players to do their thing, especially when we're playing teams who like to press high and don't have much pace in their defence.

Son brought great pace vs Liverpool but we actively played differently in that game compared to previous seasons. An example where Sissoko's athleticism helped greatly was vs Emirates Marketing Project at home last season.

Sissoko has mostly played this season; have we dropped a level because of it?

Imagine my surprise when I ask what other players brings what he brings when he's not playing and the answer is Eric Dier.

Sure, pace and athleticism can do that. But to a much greater extent when it's paired with real quality on the ball.

In open games that flow back and forth his pace and athleticism is more valuable. Like the City game you mention. But even in those games a lot of our players thrive, also without Sissoko.

Again my point is more that what he brings isn't necessary for our other players to play well as others do that too.

 

[Dr Rosenrosen]

Yep he brings this level of skill to the table nearly every match

To be fair, Winks did exactly the same thing.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I genuinely do not see these qualities that exist above and beyond our other players. Honestly I just think its a desperate grab at something to defend him with.

As with NKoudou, yes a cursory glance shows they both have pace, but as players they are simply not comparable so its something of a straw man.

We have been an excellent counter attacking side since before Pochettino came in, and more so with his influence. Before and since Sissoko, with and without him. He makes no meaningful difference in that regard. Especially as things break down with him as often than not.

You honestly think we have been a 'great counter-attacking team since before Pochettino? You honestly don't think we have increased this capability even in the last few months? You didn't notice Poch actually targetting pacy players in the last few windows, e.g. Mane, Keita Balde, Batshuayi? Ok then...

Again, speaking of teams of midgets vs athletes - more straw man stuff. Even our smallest player will not be bullied, and frankly we have a team composed largely of athletes/big and strong players. Since Poch has arrived thw whole squad has become stronger and more athletic.

So you say that "since Poch arrived the whole squad has become stronger and more athletic" but say i'm bringing a strawman argument by mentioning that perhaps Poch values some of Sissoko's athleticism? Ok then...

Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Wanyama, Dier, Dembele, Aurier, Kane are all big and tough players. The like of Rose while smaller are still hardy little buggers who stand up to challenges and put themselves about.

If this is the limit of the pro-Sissoko argument then there really is nothing else to add.

Other than, honestly, there isnt really an "anti" Sissoko argument - rather just recognition of his standing in the squad.

Like i say, i believe Poch plays him for a reason. He brings some pace that most others in our squad do not. It's a mark of Poch's multifaceted approach that he has used him the way he has and our performance has not dropped (if anything his tactical variation has increased). It's not even like i'm pro-Sissoko (i didn't want him signed) but i understand why he's being used.
This is simply what many of us are saying: if he was that bad for Poch he'd be nowhere near the match-day squad and he certainly wouldn't start away at Real Madrid..

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Dier plays a completely different role to Sissoko. And we've done perfectly fine without him too.

As others have pointed out Winks, Eriksen, Alli, Kane, Son all work their socks off. Most of them are capable of doing stuff that isn't pretty. They all have good or better movement. Hard work is a requirement for playing under Pochettino. Doing that is the absolute minimum standard.

He gets no participation trophy for that. Sissoki has done a job when others have been injured, for that he deserves some praise. He's nowhere near the quality of our regular starters though, pointing that out isn't hating on him. Pointing out that he was our worst player against Real isn't hating on him.

The faster better players are back to full fitness the better. I think he'll be lucky to be on our bench if we at any point have a full squad to choose from this season. I don't think that's hating on him.

Obviously Dier is a different position to Sissoko but the point was that he is the person that does the dirty, physical stuff and gives it simple. Just because Sissoko has a bit more license to go forward it doesn't mean that he isn't filling his role in a similar way. Yes, Winks and Eriksen will graft, they will cover spaces well and they will play their part in the team. But Eriksen for example doesn't have the physical attributes in terms of brute strength or pace. And sometimes he will get beaten or harried off the ball in situations where Sissoko wouldn't. It is about balance and although we are Spurs, and we like pretty football, we can't deny the role physicality brings in creating a balanced side.

He is very obviously giving it simple every chance he gets, and lo and behold we are winning and winning well with him in the team. I will say, Poch has created a role for Sissoko which gets the best out of him and gets us winning, but we aren't getting value for money on a £30M investment. We over-paid for a physical player to fill a role in our team, absolutely. But that isn't Sissoko's fault. He was never suited to playing the Aaron Lennon type role we had him in last season and we should at least be happy that he is every game now a net-positive contributor, and we that we are consistently winning with him in the team.

I don't think anyone has Sissoko in their first 11 when everyone is fit, but similarly I don't think a team of 11 Eriksen's would do as well as against a balanced side that included a couple of Sissoko's. That is the point that is being made here.

 

[braineclipse]

Sissoko has mostly played this season; have we dropped a level because of it?

I think we've been good despite of Sissoko more than because of him. If fit other players would have been better. Winks rather quickly grabbed a spot in our line ups from Sissoko once he regained fitness. Had he been fit from the start of the season I think he would have played more, Sissoko less, and we would have been better off.

Some games he's been more a hindrance, like against United where his lack of ability on the ball hurt us. In other: games other players have been able to compensate for his shortcomings and his strengths have been useful, like against Real. He's rarely, if ever, been amongst our best players in a game.

For me he would be the easiest to upgrade on in the transfer market, apart from Nkoudou who so far essentially doesn't play.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Imagine my surprise when I ask what other players brings what he brings when he's not playing and the answer is Eric Dier.

Sure, pace and athleticism can do that. But to a much greater extent when it's paired with real quality on the ball.

In open games that flow back and forth his pace and athleticism is more valuable. Like the City game you mention. But even in those games a lot of our players thrive, also without Sissoko.

Again my point is more that what he brings isn't necessary for our other players to play well as others do that too.

That argument can be fairly argued both ways imo; can i ask: who else brings the raw speed and athleticism, especially in terms of pressing and making fast counter-attacking runs from our half into the oppositions?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think we've been good despite of Sissoko more than because of him. If fit other players would have been better. Winks rather quickly grabbed a spot in our line ups from Sissoko once he regained fitness. Had he been fit from the start of the season I think he would have played more, Sissoko less, and we would have been better off.

Some games he's been more a hindrance, like against United where his lack of ability on the ball hurt us. In other: games other players have been able to compensate for his shortcomings and his strengths have been useful, like against Real. He's rarely, if ever, been amongst our best players in a game.

For me he would be the easiest to upgrade on in the transfer market, apart from Nkoudou who so far essentially doesn't play.

I would argue that although poor on the ball against United, he's also excellent at helping us remain solid defensively in big games. His positioning, his physical attributes, and his ability to stick to the plan and carry out instructions while not the sexiest of attributes, are also what is needed in a team. To get the best out of creative players you need to give them freedom, which means sacrificing some solidity. There is a reason Deschamps calls Sissoko a soldier. Sometimes it's better to have someone who knows their role and sticks to it, rather than asking a naturally creative player to stifle themselves, because a lot of the time you can't stifle instinct.

For instance, we could in theory play Eriksen and Dele as a double pivot in a 4-2-3-1. We could do it in a big game. They both run hard. They both work for the team. But even if you tell them their tactical role is to keep it simple, you are going to have one or both of them lose concentration when it comes to tracking runners and positioning themselves well, because their instincts will take them forward.

 

[braineclipse]

Thats the problem though, those supporting him arent far off suggesting that - most are saying he's been decent, and an important part of the squad which you cant argue with considering hes played in EVERY game this season - nothing more. Noone saying hes brilliant and is a guaranteed first XI player for us, far from it. But go back through the thread there are those spouting nonsense about how he cant kick a football, ball just bounces off his shin all the time blah blah which is an absolute load of shhhhh and that is why some have to spell out what he is doing......

In my opinion making claims that what he brings to the team is why others are able to play well is going well beyond an accurate description of what he has done well this season.

Most criticism of him has been reasonable imo. But just like some go over the top in their criticism some go over the top in defending him. Like calling people haters for what, imo, has been reasonable criticism.

Sometimes some room has to be allowed for descriptions to be a bit... overly dramatic. He's a high level professional footballer, but compared to our other attacking talent his limitations on the ball are striking. Winks can come up from the academy and do literally everything on the ball better than Sissoko. And Winks is a long way off what our best players do on the ball.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think we've been good despite of Sissoko more than because of him. If fit other players would have been better. Winks rather quickly grabbed a spot in our line ups from Sissoko once he regained fitness. Had he been fit from the start of the season I think he would have played more, Sissoko less, and we would have been better off.

Some games he's been more a hindrance, like against United where his lack of ability on the ball hurt us. In other: games other players have been able to compensate for his shortcomings and his strengths have been useful, like against Real. He's rarely, if ever, been amongst our best players in a game.

For me he would be the easiest to upgrade on in the transfer market, apart from Nkoudou who so far essentially doesn't play.

Fair enough; i disagree, especially vs Madrid away but as i say fair enough.
Re Winks, i think we would have gained in some games but not in others, but certainly it's good to have the options

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You honestly think we have been a 'great counter-attacking team since before Pochettino? You honestly don't think we have increased this capability even in the last few months? You didn't notice Poch actually targetting pacy players in the last few windows, e.g. Mane, Keita Balde, Batshuayi? Ok then...

I think maybe you need to read a little more carefully before replying, let me help:

We have been an excellent counter attacking side since before Pochettino came in, and more so with his influence. Before and since Sissoko, with and without him. He makes no meaningful difference in that regard. Especially as things break down with him as often than not.

• We were an excellent counter attacking team pre-Poch
• We have improved since Poch
• We are good with/without Sissoko, before we bought him and since. Sissoko does little to effect this ability.

What exactly are you arguing here?

So you say that "since Poch arrived the whole squad has become stronger and more athletic" but say i'm bringing a strawman argument by mentioning that perhaps Poch values some of Sissoko's athleticism? Ok then...

Your argument seems to be based on Sissoko's superior athletisism. As if he is somehow the only "athlete" we have and that that is what he brings to the side. My counter, as you point out, is that since Pochettino arrived there has been a clear move to a more athletic team.

The point is - Sissokos athleticism might be his one defining trait, but it doesnt stand him above the rest of our team. He is not vastly superior in this respect (if at all? Most certainly not in a meaningful way). His athleticism doesnt change anything.

And the fact its that which your argument hangs on speaks volumes about his lack of ability as a footballer.

Like i say, i believe Poch plays him for a reason. He brings some pace that most others in our squad do not. It's a mark of Poch's multifaceted approach that he has used him the way he has and our performance has not dropped (if anything his tactical variation has increased). It's not even like i'm pro-Sissoko (i didn't want him signed) but i understand why he's being used.
This is simply what many of us are saying: if he was that bad for Poch he'd be nowhere near the match-day squad and he certainly wouldn't start away at Real Madrid..

Sissoko was dog brick last season. Absolutely fudging appalling. It is to Pochs great credit that he has somehow turned Sissoko into something of a workhorse (though "why the hell did he buy him?!" is a valid question at this point).

I dont think there is anything other than "making do" going on with Sissoko, its not a genius squad building move, its not a buy to give us tactical flexibility - I honestly think its a transfer rooster up that we are just making the best of in the face of a fairly major injury situation.

And I fully expect that to be shown when players become fit and replace him.

That argument can be fairly argued both ways imo; can i ask: who else brings the raw speed and athleticism, especially in terms of pressing and making fast counter-attacking runs from our half into the oppositions?

Again, honestly, his athleticism isnt super human. It doesnt offer us anything we couldnt do anyway. While it might be his one true strength it doesnt automatically follow that it also makes a big difference to what is (and was) an excellent team.

 

[braineclipse]

Obviously Dier is a different position to Sissoko but the point was that he is the person that does the dirty, physical stuff and gives it simple. Just because Sissoko has a bit more license to go forward it doesn't mean that he isn't filling his role in a similar way. Yes, Winks and Eriksen will graft, they will cover spaces well and they will play their part in the team. But Eriksen for example doesn't have the physical attributes in terms of brute strength or pace. And sometimes he will get beaten or harried off the ball in situations where Sissoko wouldn't. It is about balance and although we are Spurs, and we like pretty football, we can't deny the role physicality brings in creating a balanced side.

He is very obviously giving it simple every chance he gets, and lo and behold we are winning and winning well with him in the team. I will say, Poch has created a role for Sissoko which gets the best out of him and gets us winning, but we aren't getting value for money on a £30M investment. We over-paid for a physical player to fill a role in our team, absolutely. But that isn't Sissoko's fault. He was never suited to playing the Aaron Lennon type role we had him in last season and we should at least be happy that he is every game now a net-positive contributor, and we that we are consistently winning with him in the team.

I don't think anyone has Sissoko in their first 11 when everyone is fit, but similarly I don't think a team of 11 Eriksen's would do as well as against a balanced side that included a couple of Sissoko's. That is the point that is being made here.

Every other player we have in the squad is capable of playing those simple passes. That's not praiseworthy. Particularly when he makes simple errors with those simple moves more often than others.

There was a clear claim made about runs being made by Sissoko. Dier isn't the answer to who does that when Sissoko wasn't playing and we were playing well.

Yes, physicality is useful. But I think it gets overrated when not paired with real ability on the ball. And I don't think Sissoko is particularly good at the dirty, defensive side of the game.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Every other player we have in the squad is capable of playing those simple passes. That's not praiseworthy. Particularly when he makes simple errors with those simple moves more often than others.

There was a clear claim made about runs being made by Sissoko. Dier isn't the answer to who does that when Sissoko wasn't playing and we were playing well.

Yes, physicality is useful. But I think it gets overrated when not paired with real ability on the ball. And I don't think Sissoko is particularly good at the dirty, defensive side of the game.

It's not just about simple passes.

And I think to say Sissoko isn't particularly good at the defensive side of the game - or in at least helping us be more solid - is grossly unfair.