Monsanto/GMO woo vs science

[r-u-s-x]

Please have a look at this video:
https://mylespower.co.uk/2015/05/21/golden-rice-and-why-you-should-not-fund-greenpeace/

It's from someone with a far higher opinion of greenpeace than I. Personally I think greenpeace are examples of massive flaws in the gene pool, but he's more generous.

For further reading:

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/greenpeace-anti-gmo-beliefs-nobel-laureates/

https://www.geneticliteracyproject....mo-critics-misrepresent-humanitarian-project/

I do not have the time to read all the articles at the moment but if someone had used the first link you posted as support against GMO can you honestly say you would give it the time of day:

"About Myles
For those of you who are just tuning in, my name is Myles Power and I run the educational YouTube channel powerm1985. I am originally from a small town in the North East of England called Middlesbrough, but have spend a large potion of my adult life living in Manchester. I am a chemist who is is currently working in industry, but what little free time I have I spend sharing my love of SCIENCE! through home experiments, visiting sites of scientific interest and angry rants at pseudoscience opponents. I have over many years of experience working in a research lab, which has given me the skills I need to research and debunk virus psuedoscience theories. Some of the theories I have discussed on my YouTube channel including AIDS denialists, 911 truthers, the anti-vaccination movement and homeopathy to name a few. I also am one of the founding members of the podcast The League of Nerds which I co-host with James from The History of Infection."

 

[thfcsteff]

Please have a look at this video:
https://mylespower.co.uk/2015/05/21/golden-rice-and-why-you-should-not-fund-greenpeace/

It's from someone with a far higher opinion of greenpeace than I. Personally I think greenpeace are examples of massive flaws in the gene pool, but he's more generous.

For further reading:

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/greenpeace-anti-gmo-beliefs-nobel-laureates/

https://www.geneticliteracyproject....mo-critics-misrepresent-humanitarian-project/

And there we have it. Good grief, like The Donald, you cannot resist the dirty dig!

Mate, impossible to discuss or debate with you on many things. You think people who go and work for the CPS are 'lesser' and you think Greenpeace are examples of 'massive flaws in the gene' pool. Seriously Where is there to go? You will simply claim you're 'right'. Before you assume some 'leftist anger'from this mate, not at all, I am chuckling as I write it. In fact, I bet you will probably dismiss all I've said simply because it comes from a source that is not anti-Greenpeace...namely !!!!

I must finally note that we have achieved something here with regards to you which I thought hitherto impossible, that is the use (and thus implied acceptance) of a gentleman who hails from North of N17 and (in fact) pretty much North of the majority of England - Myles Power, a youtube scientist and Teeside. But certainly not someone we could consider another social media 'quack' eh?! But let's just allow the fact you are now finding your 'support' in half-Geordie youtube scientists. This could possibly have made our discussion thoroughly worthwhile, and furthermore, opened you up to a whole new world of humanity!!!!!

As for the 'skeptical raptor', well, my word, given the caning some of the earlier sources presented to you received, well, allow me to post this!!!! Yeah, truthwiki isn't The Times, but there's enough 'fact' on this macaron to render anything he says (dare I say it) suspect!!!!!

http://www.truthwiki.org/skeptical-raptor/

Finally, the 'genetic literacy project'? Please, now you're just getting sloppy. No, I won't read their gonad*s. Just as you won't read Greenpeace. The truth lies out there somewhere, right? I am comfortable resting with mine...

http://www.truthwiki.org/genetic-literacy-project/

 

[thfcsteff]

I do not have the time to read all the articles at the moment but if someone had used the first link you posted as support against GMO can you honestly say you would give it the time of day:

"About Myles
For those of you who are just tuning in, my name is Myles Power and I run the educational YouTube channel powerm1985. I am originally from a small town in the North East of England called Middlesbrough, but have spend a large potion of my adult life living in Manchester. I am a chemist who is is currently working in industry, but what little free time I have I spend sharing my love of SCIENCE! through home experiments, visiting sites of scientific interest and angry rants at pseudoscience opponents. I have over many years of experience working in a research lab, which has given me the skills I need to research and debunk virus psuedoscience theories. Some of the theories I have discussed on my YouTube channel including AIDS denialists, 911 truthers, the anti-vaccination movement and homeopathy to name a few. I also am one of the founding members of the podcast The League of Nerds which I co-host with James from The History of Infection."

No no NO, leave him! This is a social development of some immensity, as it is Scara finding his way to (admitting in public) that a (shudder) NORTHERNER might have some socially redeeming qualities for him!!!!

 

[scaramanga]

I do not have the time to read all the articles at the moment but if someone had used the first link you posted as support against GMO can you honestly say you would give it the time of day:

"About Myles
For those of you who are just tuning in, my name is Myles Power and I run the educational YouTube channel powerm1985. I am originally from a small town in the North East of England called Middlesbrough, but have spend a large potion of my adult life living in Manchester. I am a chemist who is is currently working in industry, but what little free time I have I spend sharing my love of SCIENCE! through home experiments, visiting sites of scientific interest and angry rants at pseudoscience opponents. I have over many years of experience working in a research lab, which has given me the skills I need to research and debunk virus psuedoscience theories. Some of the theories I have discussed on my YouTube channel including AIDS denialists, 911 truthers, the anti-vaccination movement and homeopathy to name a few. I also am one of the founding members of the podcast The League of Nerds which I co-host with James from The History of Infection."

His video is there for a primer on the background - the setting of the scene if you will.

Anyone wanting the full scientific opinion can follow the further reading links - one by a group who have a long history of accurately picking apart science stories and the other, a group of scientists in the relevant field giving their opinions.

 

[scaramanga]

And there we have it. Good grief, like The Donald, you cannot resist the dirty dig!

Mate, impossible to discuss or debate with you on many things. You think people who go and work for the CPS are 'lesser' and you think Greenpeace are examples of 'massive flaws in the gene' pool. Seriously Where is there to go? You will simply claim you're 'right'. Before you assume some 'leftist anger'from this mate, not at all, I am chuckling as I write it. In fact, I bet you will probably dismiss all I've said simply because it comes from a source that is not anti-Greenpeace...namely !!!!

I must finally note that we have achieved something here with regards to you which I thought hitherto impossible, that is the use (and thus implied acceptance) of a gentleman who hails from North of N17 and (in fact) pretty much North of the majority of England - Myles Power, a youtube scientist and Teeside. But certainly not someone we could consider another social media 'quack' eh?! But let's just allow the fact you are now finding your 'support' in half-Geordie youtube scientists. This could possibly have made our discussion thoroughly worthwhile, and furthermore, opened you up to a whole new world of humanity!!!!!

I respect intelligent Northerners all the more because they're fighting both their environment and their gene pool to become that way!

There is something wrong with Greenpeace people - they are clearly lacking in the ability to apply logic and reasoning. I consider that a serious flaw. Stupidity is like a virus in the human gene pool - not only is it (at least partly) hereditary, it also causes increased levels of breeding, resulting in a greater spread of the virus.

 

[thfcsteff]

I respect intelligent Northerners all the more because they're fighting both their environment and their gene pool to become that way!

There is something wrong with Greenpeace people - they are clearly lacking in the ability to apply logic and reasoning. I consider that a serious flaw. Stupidity is like a virus in the human gene pool - not only is it (at least partly) hereditary, it also causes increased levels of breeding, resulting in a greater spread of the virus.

Everyone is lacking balance. I will take my 'lack of balance' with groups like Greenpeace over megacorps. That's the way I personally work. As we have tentatively discussed, I agree there is a discussion/debate to be had with regards to GMO food production, simply because (like wars in the Middle East) the bricky conditions exist and it is about what we do with them rather than ignore the fact they're here. I would LOVE a GMO-free world, but it is like wanting (as I said) peace in the Middle East. It won't happen with the current powers/societies/situations in place. The problem for me is that megacorps can afford to whitewash everything and dumb it down/'fear' it up to a point that people just accept the utter brick they propagate.

 

[thfcsteff]

I respect intelligent Northerners all the more because they're fighting both their environment and their gene pool to become that way!

There is something wrong with Greenpeace people - they are clearly lacking in the ability to apply logic and reasoning. I consider that a serious flaw. Stupidity is like a virus in the human gene pool - not only is it (at least partly) hereditary, it also causes increased levels of breeding, resulting in a greater spread of the virus.

One man's stupidity is another mans empathetic and bold attempt to make sense of the absolute mess mankind is becoming. My stupidity? People who are led around the planet by their wallets and massive corporations who tell them everything they 'need to know'. There is a balance between the two, and thankfully most of us try to find it, but for those who don't, again, were I to be forced to choose, I know who I'll be with

 

[scaramanga]

One man's stupidity is another mans empathetic and bold attempt to make sense of the absolute mess mankind is becoming. My stupidity? People who are led around the planet by their wallets and massive corporations who tell them everything they 'need to know'. There is a balance between the two, and thankfully most of us try to find it, but for those who don't, again, were I to be forced to choose, I know who I'll be with

We're talking about very different things here. We can both have entirely different and valid (although mine will always be more valid!) opinions on subjects where there is no definitive science proving one or the other to be false. In fact, it would be an incredibly boring world if we didn't.

When I refer to people as stupid or incapable of applying logic it's in the sense of subjects like GMO and GE where there is a very clear scientific consensus that one side is correct. Ignoring that is a serious failure in using logic.

You may not like large corporations, you may not like people being motivated by profit, you may not like intensive farming - that's up to you. Trying to suggest that GMO/GE is somehow bad though is not an opinion based on logic or one that can be backed up with reasoning or evidence.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

You haven't answered my (now very relevant) question about golden rice.

What is Golden Rice? Oh okay just read that. So what? Does that invalidate the irresponsible practises associated with GE foods in some way? I'm with Steff all the way, only shareholders or the naïve would place their trust in corporations with a financial agenda.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

No no NO, leave him! This is a social development of some immensity, as it is Scara finding his way to (admitting in public) that a (shudder) NORTHERNER might have some socially redeeming qualities for him!!!!

Ha, ha, ha. Talk about a massive credibility gap, now all we need is for Scara to quote some Scouser home scientist. Is there any low you will not stoop to?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I just love Scara. Apart from bringing us this wonderful site where we can all share our love of Spurs, he does such amusing things. He really makes me laugh.

 

[scaramanga]

What is Golden Rice? Oh okay just read that. So what? Does that invalidate the irresponsible practises associated with GE foods in some way?

The point of the question is to establish whether you have a problem with GM or with profit in general - it's a very important distinction.

I'm with Steff all the way, only shareholders or the naïve would place their trust in corporations with a financial agenda.

Do you drive a car? Wear clothes? Use gas or electricity?

Every minute of every day you're placing trust in corporations with a financial agenda because all corporations have a financial agenda.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

The point of the question is to establish whether you have a problem with GM or with profit in general - it's a very important distinction.


Do you drive a car? Wear clothes? Use gas or electricity?

Every minute of every day you're placing trust in corporations with a financial agenda because all corporations have a financial agenda.

No I use their products because there is very little alternative. Use does not equate to trust. Mate you should hear the noise when I read my gas or electricity bill.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

One man's stupidity is another mans empathetic and bold attempt to make sense of the absolute mess mankind is becoming. My stupidity? People who are led around the planet by their wallets and massive corporations who tell them everything they 'need to know'. There is a balance between the two, and thankfully most of us try to find it, but for those who don't, again, were I to be forced to choose, I know who I'll be with

Thats a bit harsh, dont talk bout Scara like that.

He has BM's (M series only) and Private Ed for his boy to pay for.

At least not giving a f*ck about anyone else costs nothing

 

[JerusalemMan]

I do not have the time to read all the articles at the moment but if someone had used the first link you posted as support against GMO can you honestly say you would give it the time of day:

"About Myles
For those of you who are just tuning in, my name is Myles Power and I run the educational YouTube channel powerm1985. I am originally from a small town in the North East of England called Middlesbrough, but have spend a large potion of my adult life living in Manchester. I am a chemist who is is currently working in industry, but what little free time I have I spend sharing my love of SCIENCE! through home experiments, visiting sites of scientific interest and angry rants at pseudoscience opponents. I have over many years of experience working in a research lab, which has given me the skills I need to research and debunk virus psuedoscience theories. Some of the theories I have discussed on my YouTube channel including AIDS denialists, 911 truthers, the anti-vaccination movement and homeopathy to name a few. I also am one of the founding members of the podcast The League of Nerds which I co-host with James from The History of Infection."

At least he has "over many years of experience working in a lab"

 

[ringo]

I wonder how many times the existing technology vs new technology argument has played out in the past. Essentially, if something is theoretically possible, or if we can imagine it might be, eventually mankind gets there and does it.
Even if it wasn't profitable we would do it out of curiosity, to see if we could. In years to come we will all eat genetically modified food, and while it may be in the interest of some corporations short term, it is probably in all of our interests long term.

When we moved from horse drawn buggy to cars, there were protests about the new technology, thousands of people were put out of work, more people are killed by cars than were by horse drawn buggies, a few corporations and a few individuals made huge fortunes out of the motor industry. At the time it might have easily been argued the automobiles was really just a way for evil corporations to make more money at the expense of the environment, and all the RTA victims. Yet, how many people would argue today that we should have stuck with the horse drawn buggy?

Should we have invented the combustion engine? Nuclear fission? Cracked the human genome? Fired very very very tiny particles at other very very very tiny particles to see what happens? Built hot air balloons?
Exploration is part of the human condition.

It is not the things that we discover that we should ascribe moral or ethical value to. It is what we choose to do with them. And whether or not that is wrong or right, good or bad, in any particular instance is a whole other debate. If, as a company, I discover explosives and then manufacture weapons which are used to kill people - is that bad. Is it only bad if they are used to kill good people? If the explosives are subsequently used to mine metals that are used to make surgical instruments - am I now a good company. But if those surgical instruments are used to torture people, what then? Or is it only the people who use the explosives and surgical instruments that are good and/or bad? (In which case blame the farmers not Monsanto)

It is often complex and very rarely binary.

 

[thfcsteff]

First of all, and even you will grasp this, the studies are NOT universally positive on GMOs, furthermore, there has not been enough elapsed time to prove they are 'harmless'. You continually choose to refer to people who oppose certain factions of the science community as a 'failure of logic' when, in fact, you are similarly failing to apply logic. What consensus? I see collective opinions on all sides. You write off anyone who does not agree with your science as a quack or illogical. I tell you this - your first paragraph in post 108 was on the money. Your second destroyed it.

By the way, using the app and I have to say well done Sir! Fine work!


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[thfcsteff]

@ringo...absolutely, a fine post. And food production is complex. Your tool analogy is essentially at the crux of the matter. Science is great. Science manipulated by corporations for the wrong primary agenda? Not so much.

Another cracking discussion incidentally.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

First of all, and even you will grasp this, the studies are NOT universally positive on GMOs,

I'd be very interested to see some that aren't. It would surprise me hugely because scientists don't tend to come to a strong consensus when the data are still debatable.

furthermore, there has not been enough elapsed time to prove they are 'harmless'.

The experts say there has.

You continually choose to refer to people who oppose certain factions of the science community as a 'failure of logic' when, in fact, you are similarly failing to apply logic.

When all the people who know a lot about something all agree, when all of the studies around a subject agree, when every reason against it has been thoroughly debunked by the scientific community there is only one path of logic.

What consensus? I see collective opinions on all sides.

From scientists? Geneticists? That's not what I see or hear - can you link to any serious scientists who disagree?

Here's a pretty good consensus to start with:
http://supportprecisionagriculture.org/view-signatures_rjr.html

You write off anyone who does not agree with your science as a quack or illogical.

Strike the word "your" from that sentence and you've described my position perfectly.

It's not my science, it's just science.[/QUOTE]

 

[thfcsteff]

Scara. Here you go. It is absolutely NOT a done and dusted scientific situation. Read through the entire document. There is MUCH to be done still in terms of confirming 'safety' in this field. Again, believe YOUR science if you wish, I choose not to.

http://www.ensser.org/increasing-public-information/no-scientific-consensus-on-gmo-safety/

Here is who they are.

http://www.ensser.org/about/

Note, not for profit. Whether you want to admit it or not, those words make a lot of difference when it comes to the nature of how some scientific data on ANYTHING, from GMOs to climate change issues, is both conducted and reported.


By the way, I consider it a despicable joke that any body of 'scientists', let alone 'laureates' would suggest that objecting to (and providing counter information against) the production of golden rice might be considered a 'crime against humanity', I mean seriously, shall we make a list of 'crimes against humanity' which are far greater, even when it comes to food for the people on this planet?