Michael Dawson

[Robspur12]

Re: Dawson

Having seen the goal again tonight, I'd comment on Walker just as much as Dawson here. In fact all four players are culpable, but as Windy says in his blog Walker switched off and if he had been quicker to see the danger he would have made it across in time.

So..

Rose not goalside of Jelavic, having been drawn towards his man.
Vertonghen being slow on the turn to keep up with Long
Dawson for getting pulled across and challenging Jelavic when staying in the space was the better option.
Walker for being asleep and not tucking in as a contingency.

I think Verts should take a lot more of the blame than you are giving him. Long is his man. Jelavic was Dawson's man easy in hindsight to say what he should have done. If daws is supposed to read where the danger is when he is watching his man, why did Verts failed to do so despite it being his man who went on to score? I do think people judge Daws much more harshly than the other defenders especially verts.

 

[Cochise]

Re: Dawson

I think what i'm trying to say is that all of our defence were culpable for that goal and not just one or two members. If we are going to blame Rose for not dealing with Jelavic then we must blame Dawson for getting involved when he shouldn't right?? Rose was challenging Jelavic for the loose ball whilst Dawson was too far away to make a real challenge. At this stage he shouldn't be getting involved, he's too far away to challenge but close enough to commit himself when he should really be on the cover for the two players that are challenging.

I am not taking blame from Verts and laying it at Dawson's feet. His mistake was getting out muscled for or more likely mis judging the header. Long was already on the turn and away as Vertonghen was landing. Walker should be closer to the action too as additional cover. He himself should've been closer originally and certainly more so the moment Dawson ran across to the left.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Dawson

I think what i'm trying to say is that all of our defence were culpable for that goal and not just one or two members. If we are going to blame Rose for not dealing with Jelavic then we must blame Dawson for getting involved when he shouldn't right?? Rose was challenging Jelavic for the loose ball whilst Dawson was too far away to make a real challenge. At this stage he shouldn't be getting involved, he's too far away to challenge but close enough to commit himself when he should really be on the cover for the two players that are challenging.

I am not taking blame from Verts and laying it at Dawson's feet. His mistake was getting out muscled for or more likely mis judging the header. Long was already on the turn and away as Vertonghen was landing. Walker should be closer to the action too as additional cover. He himself should've been closer originally and certainly more so the moment Dawson ran across to the left.

Fair enough mate I think that is a much fairer description of how the goal came about. Like I said there is. A systemic issue with our defending as a team. Unfortunately a lot of the posters want to blame it solely on Dawson.

 

[metalgear]

Re: Dawson

I think Verts should take a lot more of the blame than you are giving him. Long is his man. Jelavic was Dawson's man easy in hindsight to say what he should have done. If daws is supposed to read where the danger is when he is watching his man, why did Verts failed to do so despite it being his man who went on to score? I do think people judge Daws much more harshly than the other defenders especially verts.

a rapidly accelerating striker is always going to pass verts - heck even i could do it its just the law of physics... long came from deep, there are a few players who can to counteract this:

1. walker - from the other wing who is likely unoccupied.
2. any CM - tracking the run from midfield
3. the "last man" or the deeper positioned CB

I'd share the blame across all three but not equally.

1. walker got there but just missed a step or two
2. any CMs - the consequence of plugging that hole in front of defence, not anyone looking to support the centrebacks
3. our CB's positioning is naieve - too static, too high. Dawson was way out of place and put Verts in a very difficult position

perfect storm. perfect goal.

but stupid tactics in the sense that if you're going to play your CBs that high up, you will CMs ready to track back. Its just impossible to turn 180 degrees and catch up with anyone at full stride.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Dawson

a rapidly accelerating striker is always going to pass verts - heck even i could do it its just the law of physics... long came from deep, there are a few players who can to counteract this:

1. walker - from the other wing who is likely unoccupied.
2. any CM - tracking the run from midfield
3. the "last man" or the deeper positioned CB

I'd share the blame across all three but not equally.

1. walker got there but just missed a step or two
2. any CMs - the consequence of plugging that hole in front of defence, not anyone looking to support the centrebacks
3. our CB's positioning is naieve - too static, too high. Dawson was way out of place and put Verts in a very difficult position

perfect storm. perfect goal.

but stupid tactics in the sense that if you're going to play your CBs that high up, you will CMs ready to track back. Its just impossible to turn 180 degrees and catch up with anyone at full stride.

Verts hesitates and ball watches which is why Long steals a march on him. Verts does not see the danger in time. I agree once Long has that space it is difficult to catch up unless you are Rio Ferdinand, the 2002 version. But I don't think you can completely absolve verts from blame. Daws was following his man namely Jelavic. Yes that created the gap but Long should have been tracked better. I listened on the radio as I could n't get a stream both commentators were blaming Verts.

 

[metalgear]

Re: Dawson

Verts hesitates which is why Long steals a march on him. Verts does not see the danger in time. I agree once Long has that space it is difficult to catch up unless you are Rio Ferdinand, the 2002 version. But I don't think you can completely absolve verts from blame. Daws was following his man namely Jelavic. Yes that created the gap but Long should have been tracked better. I listened on the radio as I could n't get a stream both commentators were blaming Verts.

totally agree that verts should have reacted better, however you can imagine him having a WTF moment when Rose put in a half hearted attempt that allowed jelavic to hook the ball awakwardly over the top and in the opposite direction that he was coming from.

but also lets give shane long due credit, he is fast, very fast and is capable of putting them away decisively when given the chance. it looked like we didn't cater for his speed in our plans, or were gambling that we could stop him, or didn't give the competition enough respect. Jelavic too gave our defenders a lot of problems with his physicality. Shane Long tormented everyone across the back four. we needed that defensive midfielder to almost man-mark long yesterday.

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: Dawson

totally agree that verts should have reacted better, however you can imagine him having a WTF moment when Rose put in a half hearted attempt that allowed jelavic to hook the ball awakwardly over the top and in the opposite direction that he was coming from.

but also lets give shane long due credit, he is fast, very fast and is capable of putting them away decisively when given the chance. it looked like we didn't cater for his speed in our plans, or were gambling that we could stop him, or didn't give the competition enough respect. Jelavic too gave our defenders a lot of problems with his physicality. Shane Long tormented everyone across the back four. we needed that defensive midfielder to almost man-mark long yesterday.

a 5 man defence?
All you need to do to play against Shane Long is to drop deep. He relies on pace to score usually. Let him have the ball 30 yards out he isn't rvp or suarez he's not gonna find the top corner or dribble past a man.

 

[metalgear]

Re: Dawson

dropping the line deeper is another option to consider., but i think it will make worse the gap between the CMs and CBs that has already been a major vulnerability under sherwood

my point with that example of a man marking midfielder is just to illustrate how simple it is to deal with the problem. in our case, it kills two birds with one stone, the other problem being that big gap by having two CMs who prefer venturing forwards than tracking back.

to ignore a speedy attacker when you're playing a high defensive line is very risky. not just goals, but exposing defenders and increasing chances of receiving yellow/red cards. its the easiest most direct way to score goals.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Dawson

a rapidly accelerating striker is always going to pass verts - heck even i could do it its just the law of physics... long came from deep, there are a few players who can to counteract this:

1. walker - from the other wing who is likely unoccupied.
2. any CM - tracking the run from midfield
3. the "last man" or the deeper positioned CB

I'd share the blame across all three but not equally.

1. walker got there but just missed a step or two
2. any CMs - the consequence of plugging that hole in front of defence, not anyone looking to support the centrebacks
3. our CB's positioning is naieve - too static, too high. Dawson was way out of place and put Verts in a very difficult position

perfect storm. perfect goal.

but stupid tactics in the sense that if you're going to play your CBs that high up, you will CMs ready to track back. Its just impossible to turn 180 degrees and catch up with anyone at full stride.

That goal does not happen if Daws stays 5 yards deeper.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Dawson

Verts hesitates and ball watches which is why Long steals a march on him. Verts does not see the danger in time. I agree once Long has that space it is difficult to catch up unless you are Rio Ferdinand, the 2002 version. But I don't think you can completely absolve verts from blame. Daws was following his man namely Jelavic. Yes that created the gap but Long should have been tracked better. I listened on the radio as I could n't get a stream both commentators were blaming Verts.

Trust me, the commentators have it wrong. Verts didn't paint himself in glory but Daws has absolutely no reason to push up as Rose is already there missing stuff! Watch it and you will see. He needs to sit off! No reason at all for him to be there. He can not afford to get tight to forwards these days when he is defending deep.

 

[metalgear]

Re: Dawson

That goal does not happen if Daws stays 5 yards deeper.

yes see point 3.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Dawson

Trust me, the commentators have it wrong. Verts didn't paint himself in glory but Daws has absolutely no reason to push up as Rose is already there missing stuff! Watch it and you will see. He needs to sit off! No reason at all for him to be there. He can not afford to get tight to forwards these days when he is defending deep.

You're right Dawson pushes forward which leaves a gap behind. But you are expecting him to read the game and letting everyone else off the hook when IMO they are all equally to blame for the goal. I have a feeling if Dawson was verts he would still be getting the rough end of the stick because that's how it normally plays out on this board.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Dawson

Except walker IMO who has every right to expect his 3 team mates to deal with The threat.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Dawson

That goal does not happen if Daws stays 5 yards deeper.

That goal also doesn't happen if Rose doesn't let jelavic play the ball across or verts stays alert and tracks his man.

 

[P.D.]

Re: Dawson

Fair enough mate I think that is a much fairer description of how the goal came about. Like I said there is. A systemic issue with our defending as a team. Unfortunately a lot of the posters want to blame it solely on Dawson.

No people are saying that the defence isn't playing as a unit with poor organisation. Dawson as club captain and defensive leader should be in charge of that but he isn't doing his job properly which is causing all manner of problems.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Dawson

That goal also doesn't happen if Rose doesn't let jelavic play the ball across or verts stays alert and tracks his man.

Yet earlier you said Dawson was tracking Jelavic and that was his man?

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Dawson

Yet earlier you said Dawson was tracking Jelavic and that was his man?

Yes then he was challenged by Rose? Your point?

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Dawson

No people are saying that the defence isn't playing as a unit with poor organisation. Dawson as club captain and defensive leader should be in charge of that but he isn't doing his job properly which is causing all manner of problems.

I think that is too simplistic a view. One player does not hold together an entire defensive unit or tactical plan. An effective defensive system is put in place by having a plan, effective coaching and good tactics worked over and over again on the training pitch. I think that the current priorities of the team is more about the offensive rather than defensive.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Dawson

Yes then he was challenged by Rose? Your point?

Surely it's at least partly Dawson's job to stop the ball being played if Jelavic is in fact his man and he's tracking him? Or if it's Rose's job to stop the pass from Jelavic surely Dawson could be doing something else?

For me at least it seems very strange for Dawson, the right sided centre back, to come that far across to the left side unless the player on the ball is very close to a goalscoring chance - something Jelavic obviously isn't. Stay in position.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Dawson

Surely it's at least partly Dawson's job to stop the ball being played if Jelavic is in fact his man and he's tracking him? Or if it's Rose's job to stop the pass from Jelavic surely Dawson could be doing something else?

For me at least it seems very strange for Dawson, the right sided centre back, to come that far across to the left side unless the player on the ball is very close to a goalscoring chance - something Jelavic obviously isn't. Stay in position.

No argument from me that Dawson makes a mistake although that is us having the benefit of hindsight, what is happening in real time doesn't necessarily give the defender time to think ahead. My point was 3 people make mistakes that lead to the goal but Dawson is, as usual, taking the brunt.