MEGA RANT time for Levy & Co to go

[mjc23]

I'm a big fan of Levy, look where we were when he took over and where we are now. Look at all the chairman / owners in the league..... I'd say we're doing alright.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I'm not absolving Levy of any blame. I have been critical of him many times and will continue to criticise his mistakes but on balance, I think that he has done a good job at Spurs. I think that the gulf between us and the clubs above us is primarily a financial one and not a decision making one.

If we go back to AVB one last time. This season AVB fell out with Levy, Baldini, Freund, Adebayor and the medical team. How can Levy to be to blame for any of these apart from the first one?

I'm not denying he's done a good job either. I'm simply saying there's been one too many wasted seasons as a result of bad managerial gambles.

As for 'falling out', I think when someone comes into the club to make changes, he's going to upset a few people. I don't exactly know why these 'fall outs' happened, and we've had largely the Spurs PR machine to give us the nod and winks as to why AVB needed to go. Not much from AVB's side as to why the disagreements started. But I could just say that Baldini maybe became too much Levy's man rather than backing up AVB's vision to Levy. Freund was given tonnes of responsibility in the first year, being the main man in COC games while AVB took a back seat. So AVB was giving him opportunities and it doesn't necessarily have to ride that big bad AVB was then being unfair when whatever happened between them, happened. As for Adebayor, I don't blame him there at all. As for the medical team, if he wanted it changed, more power to him.

 

[camspur]

And you're absolving Levy, the top of the tree, the buck-stopper, of any wrong doing too.

This wasn't a discussion on the reasons AVB left the club. This wasn't a 'Levy should have given AVB more time' argument. I made a point that certain types of coaches are immediate change effectors and some clearly need more time to put something in place. That then got taken as me backing up my favourite AVB despite doing nothing of the sort. In that context, I wasn't saying one was better than the other.

But I'll say again, since we've come down this road, we are not some amazing top of the line highly sought after position in the life of AVB. He doesn't need to bend his will and compromise his ideas if they are so drastically different to the chairman. He can move on. He has considerable value in this sport. It's as much our job to make sure he can do the job he wants to do as it is his job to work for Levy, or he shouldn't be hired at all. And he shouldn't have been hired at all. The due dilligence was not carried out effectively or extensively enough.

And I can see why that made sound harsh towards Levy, and in some ways it is. But he is the guy at the top of the tree. When it goes wrong it's because he has gotten it wrong. That's what goes with being in that position. Especially when other clubs' chairman are going completely against the grain and getting it completely right. If AVB won the league last season or this then Levy should be hailed as a genius for appointing him. That he failed means Levy needs to take the blame for making the wrong hire. But he's getting none of it. Again, AVB is a valuable commodity in world football, with certain ideas that have made him successful and highly sought after. We are a perennial Europa-League participant that's been in the top European competition once in GHod knows how many years. AVB does not need to compromise too much to keep his job. We are not the best he will ever do.

So because he's the "top of the tree" then every wrong decision made is his fault? I'm afraid I just don't see your logic there otherwise let's just appont HIM as manager, head coach, chief scout, DoF and tea lady. There has to be some delegation of duties and those with those responsibilities must take the blame for their mistakes.

 

[WhoopWhoop]

All the people who won't question levy in the slightest a question for you....do you think it'll be acceptable this summer again when we inevitably sell our best players(vertonghen lloris) and replace with inferior players? All the while being the second most expensive team to go and watch in world football?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

So because he's the "top of the tree" then every wrong decision made is his fault? I'm afraid I just don't see your logic there otherwise let's just appont HIM as manager, head coach, chief scout, DoF and tea lady. There has to be some delegation of duties and those with those responsibilities must take the blame for their mistakes.

Yes. As I said it seems like a fair enough stick to best managers with on here when things go wrong...buck stops with them. It should extend to the chairman too. He hires the people. It's a strategic business decision which he got wrong and not for the first time it wasted an entire season.

In return he gets all the praise in the world when things go really well. That's what comes from being in his position.

 

[braineclipse]

Sooooo...it's fine to do exactly what people claim I'm doing with AVB, when Levy is the one being defended?

Personally I try to stay on topic in these discussion. In my experience the "you said, she said" type of what do you otherwise say about this discussions rarely get anywhere. I think you got accused of blaming Levy almost entirely for the AVB situation? Seeing as the discussion had devolved into another AVB discussion at that point I think that's kinda topical at least.

I think most of those pro-Levy are saying that "in hindsight, hiring AVB was the wrong choice". At least I'll say that. What more do you want? Again, see Jordinho's post that I quoted.

Of course it's factual. And were this the first season wasted due to a Levy managerial decision I'd be more inclined to forgive. It's not though.

You claim Levy doesn't have ambitions above 5th-7th, then you also claim that the managerial decisions that's gotten us there were failures and that those seasons were wasted. Does this not strike you as a slight dissonance in your argument?

Out of curiosity, and looking for a base rate. Assuming that our ambitions are to over perform significantly compared to our turnover/budget compared to our rivals and that this is our standard for success (it seems to be yours, even though you claim it's not Levy's) what percentage of managerial appointments would you expect to be successful?

Again, people accuse me of doing everything I can to shield AVB from blame when you're advocating doing exactly that for Levy because, well just because.

I'm sorry, what? Where did I advocate that?

So, because I think he's made mistakes in the past do I have to put that in every positive post I make about Levy? Every other post? Every 10th post? Do I have to add a once paragraph disclaimer to my positive posts highlighting what I think are the most valid criticisms?

Or can we just discuss what's actually being discussed?

The crux of my post was to do with types of coaches. I really didn't want it to turn into the 'AVB is a social retread' stuff it then became. The point there wasn't even the criticism of Levy, the coach being expendable is just what he wants...so that if they leave continuity is maintained. And you know that. But it's turned into this AVB debate again whereby I get accused of doing everything I can to defend my favourite as if that's a bad thing, when everyone can defend Levy regardless just because he's Levy. Lame.

Your point was that some coaches had to be given time, you used AVB as an example iirc.

I think the counter arguments presented were largely valid. I asked why AVB was one that needed time, considering he hadn't spent more than a season at any club before joining us I think that was a decent question. Someone else stated that it seemed like the AVB situation was locked and that giving him more time would be counter productive, or words to that effect. This will obviously start a discussion about that AVB situation, whose fault it was etc. Not my cup of tea anymore as I think it's been done to death, but a valid question. One you could have just stated that you didn't want to get into and left it at that if you too feel done with that particular discussion.

 

[Jordinho]

All the people who won't question levy in the slightest a question for you....do you think it'll be acceptable this summer again when we inevitably sell our best players(vertonghen lloris) and replace with inferior players? All the while being the second most expensive team to go and watch in world football?

How come we have steadily improved as a team despite constantly adding inferior players?

 

[WhoopWhoop]

We've done nothing but go backwards since we sold modric. We're more than likely going to go even further back this summer too if we sell vertonghen lloris adebayor. It's just not acceptable to sell our best players every summer.

 

[Jordinho]

Your point was that some coaches had to be given time, you used AVB as an example iirc.

I think the counter arguments presented were largely valid. I asked why AVB was one that needed time, considering he hadn't spent more than a season at any club before joining us I think that was a decent question. Someone else stated that it seemed like the AVB situation was locked and that giving him more time would be counter productive, or words to that effect. This will obviously start a discussion about that AVB situation, whose fault it was etc. Not my cup of tea anymore as I think it's been done to death, but a valid question. One you could have just stated that you didn't want to get into and left it at that if you too feel done with that particular discussion.

This is more a general thing, rather than directed purely at this post.

Why is it that individuals, be it a manager or players, are more important than the club for some?

The club can't stick by everyone regardless of performance. Some times you can't wait any longer for someone to regain previous form or for a manager to get it right. Some times it's better to make that call, rather than hope it will work out. There will be times where the risk no longer justifies waiting for a potential reward.

Considering how quick fans are to write off players or want the manager sacked, I find it strange how much blame Levy gets when he eventually does something about it.

 

[camspur]

All the people who won't question levy in the slightest a question for you....do you think it'll be acceptable this summer again when we inevitably sell our best players(vertonghen lloris) and replace with inferior players? All the while being the second most expensive team to go and watch in world football?

Even though I am not one of the "Won't question Levy in the slightest" although not everything can be laid at his door I don't find it acceptable but I find it a shed load more acceptable than being owned by Mike Ashley or Vincent Tan.

 

[braineclipse]

We've done nothing but go backwards since we sold modric. We're more than likely going to go even further back this summer too if we sell vertonghen lloris adebayor. It's just not acceptable to sell our best players every summer.

Well then you should find our situation acceptable because it's a misrepresentation to say that we sell our best players every summer.

All the people who won't question levy in the slightest a question for you....do you think it'll be acceptable this summer again when we inevitably sell our best players(vertonghen lloris) and replace with inferior players? All the while being the second most expensive team to go and watch in world football?

Acceptable... I suppose that's a good word for it.

I think it's unrealistic for a club our size to hang on to our best players for as long as we would ideally like. I've come to accept that at any place in the pecking order below Real, Barca and Bayern this is the reality we have to deal with.

I think Levy isn't only rational to the extreme, I think he's a realist and does his best in the situation we find ourselves in at any given time.

For this summer I'm desperate for us to keep Hugo and Jan, I hope he is too. That doesn't mean that I think it's unacceptable if they end up leaving.

Side note on your claim that we're the second most expensive team to go and watch in world football. Are the numbers you've seen on this adjusted to average incomes in other countries? Remember Spain has a frankly disgusting unemployment rate that's even higher amongst young people that will be a large chunk of the target audience for football clubs. Just as an example. Using exchange rates and comparing ticket prices directly (the method I've seen in the past) is just a completely useless comparison.

 

[Raziel]

All the people who won't question levy in the slightest a question for you....do you think it'll be acceptable this summer again when we inevitably sell our best players(vertonghen lloris) and replace with inferior players? All the while being the second most expensive team to go and watch in world football?

Two real questions for you

- Do you believe if Vert/Lloris leave this summer, it's because they asked or Levy pushed the sale?
- Do you prefer high ticket prices and your club finishing in European spots with no danger of financial meltdown, or would you prefer Levy made the tickets cheap and we could potentially be playing in the championship (see Barcodes example)

You can't have it both ways .. people bitch that we sell great players, well guess what, you have to give Levy credit for getting us great players in the first place.

I can't really think of a non top 4 side that has had the equivalent quality of Carrick, Modric, Berbatov, VDV, Bale, Ade, Lloris, Eriksen in any 5-7 year period.