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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Saturday aside Poch has been a great Manager for Spurs, but he’s not the finished article by any means so will make mistakes now and again. Making mistakes is what makes a person- it’s how you learn from those mistakes so the next time you don’t make the same mistakes.

poch should take some time off for the next couple of weeks completely but I fully expect he’ll come back and analyse the brick out of what happened and how he can change that going forward. Make no bones about it Poch is an ambitious manager who wants to win things, whether he feels that is here or somewhere else is another question.

Levy had a big role to play in all thus if poch decides he needs upgrades on players to be able to compete at the top top level. I’m not wholly convinced Levy really wants us to do that by splurge out loadsa money I’m pretty sure he’d be happy with finishing top 4 every year, and remaining a well run club. The problem with that is you can’t sit still while all around are upgrading.
 
Saturday aside Poch has been a great Manager for Spurs, but he’s not the finished article by any means so will make mistakes now and again. Making mistakes is what makes a person- it’s how you learn from those mistakes so the next time you don’t make the same mistakes.

poch should take some time off for the next couple of weeks completely but I fully expect he’ll come back and analyse the brick out of what happened and how he can change that going forward. Make no bones about it Poch is an ambitious manager who wants to win things, whether he feels that is here or somewhere else is another question.

Levy had a big role to play in all thus if poch decides he needs upgrades on players to be able to compete at the top top level. I’m not wholly convinced Levy really wants us to do that by splurge out loadsa money I’m pretty sure he’d be happy with finishing top 4 every year, and remaining a well run club. The problem with that is you can’t sit still while all around are upgrading.
All managers make mistakes, even the best.

The perceived number of mistakes gets greatly amplified by the fact that all of Pochettino's decisions get tested one way or another, we see the results. All of the counterfactual proposals suggested here and elsewhere never get tested. We'll never know what would have happened had he started Moura, in hindsight it's easy to perceive that as a mistake, with no way to actually know how that would have turned out.

We performed well in the final imo. Up against a very good team we made it a close game decided by small margins. I don't think we can realistically ask for much more from Pochettino or any manager at this point.
 
All managers make mistakes, even the best.

The perceived number of mistakes gets greatly amplified by the fact that all of Pochettino's decisions get tested one way or another, we see the results. All of the counterfactual proposals suggested here and elsewhere never get tested. We'll never know what would have happened had he started Moura, in hindsight it's easy to perceive that as a mistake, with no way to actually know how that would have turned out.

We performed well in the final imo. Up against a very good team we made it a close game decided by small margins. I don't think we can realistically ask for much more from Pochettino or any manager at this point.

This is the problem with the Moura/Kane type situation. People can always say “we’d have been better with Moura” and it’s hard to dispute that because it can never be tested. We may or may not have been. I’d judge the manager on his decision making process with the information to hand before the game and, on that basis, I fully understand why he did what he did.

Personally, I think Harry got very, very little quality service so it was always going to be hard for him. The number of bad or misplaced passes in the final third was criminal.
 
I owe you a reply long overdue.

I honestly don’t need pity, although it’s not lost on me your strong levels of empathy that is very much a credit to you.
Not so long ago I was very much like you, we had this conversation before obviously but I would like to make the following clear...
When we win and play well of course I enjoy it, despite what many people might think I have not morphed into some zombie like creature that will only crack a smile with the passing of trapped wind or if we win a trophy.
Maybe the reason I’m the way I am is because I did really love Poch and respect him and have enjoyed many many days under his tenure, but my worst fears about him surfaced big time this season.
Define failure, you know the answer because I gave it after the Ajax second leg. Failure is not winning anything since 2008...unlike, Wigan, Leicester, teams well out of our stratosphere.
Comparing this season to ‘game of thrones’ an incredible journey of so much promise with many high points yet the ending ultimately feels unsatisfying.

But to those who fudging had an amazing night after the Amsterdam comeback...good on you, let’s hope there are many more good times.
Poch and his behaviour up at turf moor upset me greatly because as you said it was out of character, it was like some horrible parody of the jezza Kyle show. We lost fair and square and played poop and all that was important was blaming the ref.
His behaviour let the club down that day.
Perspective, it’s the buzz word on here! I have misplaced mine apparently, because my attitude and views on winning titles is wrong...apparently...

So much so that even the most respectable posters on here namedrop me just so I can check my alerts to know they have mugged me off.
Ghod it lifts my tender heart so!

What I would very much like is someone to breakdown the points I made in both my long posts, 1 before the Ajax game and my post last night...minus even the best posters on here Just coming out with phrases like ‘lost perspective’ ‘best pound for pound manager’ ‘ungrateful swine’ ‘he’s magic’ and so on.

Why was it right not to strip Lloris of the captaincy after drink driving?
Am I wrong or has poch’s Media work Been exemplary this year?
Has our style of play progressed this season?
Does it really feel right to take a dump on Moura and play Kane in the final?
Do people really believe Poch hasn’t made mistakes this year?

I’m a reasonable guy and I’m happy for anyone to quote those posts and explain to me the error of my ways.
But yes ultimately clubs, managers, players, are all remembered for their achievements in the game, trophies...it is shallow I admit but I feel it’s the truth.

Hey there,
Sorry for not replying but since you posted others have eloquently expressed very similar feelings to myself so it feels like I'd go over old ground again - and the good Lord knows that the internet is absolutely not about going round in circles and repeating points...

I did want to say thanks for your measured response and not devolving into abuse and incoherent hyperbole.

Personally, I'll just say that I am ambivalent on the Lloris issue - I appreciate the PR aspect but there's internal company and team dynamics at play to which we are just not privy.

Your weighting of the Burnley issue continues to surprise me in view of this being a one-off display from Pochettino for which he pretty much unreservedly apologised and has not repeated. That goes nowhere close to undoing years of pretty much exemplary behaviour and representation of the club. Added to which, we really don't know for sure (just rumours) what exactly Mike Dean said that could have triggered a self-confessed emotional person at a point of high stress/vulnerability.

The Kane/Moura thing, Poch called it before the game. If it works, he's a genius. If it doesn't, he's a s*** manager. He knew this risk, he guessed it was a bit of a gamble, I'm ok with him just making a choice. Especially as Kane is the figurehead and Moura could have worked very well off the bench.
 
An interesting review of the CL Final from Graham Hunter

At about 16 minutes he talks about the Kane/Moura choice, from the perspective of Steve Archibald who had had the same experience with Barca (injured, replacement scored a hattrick in the semi).
At about 20 minutes he talks about Bayern Munich's sporting director (Hasan Salihamadzic) saying they didn't chase Poch because they felt he is too slow to see issues and change the tactics.

https://play.acast.com/s/thebiginterviewwithgrahamhunter/championsleaguereview-punch-drunkinmadrid
 
Poch is quick to see issues and change tactics, IMO.

Usually he addresses it on the field during the game, rather that by making subs. Ive lost count of the times its been noted we played 3 or 4 distinct formations/styles during a single match.

If I had to complain about Poch Id say its that he plays it a bit too safe for me.

Against Liverpool I advocated a MF/Front line of

.........Sissoko.....Eriksen
Moura..........Alli...........Son
................Kane

And I stand by it - but knew all along Poch would start as he did.
 
Michael Cox did a tactical review of the game, and in his view, Poch didn't do anything wrong, selection wise - the issue was that, having generated four good chances through breakaways or one-on-one, we wasted them all through bad decision making/bad touches.

I didn't want Alli to start - and indeed, he turned out to be pretty awful in the game. I would have preferred a front-line of Son, Eriksen, Lucas and Kane.

But, as Cox pointed out, tactically, there was nothing wrong on the night. Just bad performances. So it's not really on Poch.

As for Salihamadzic's comment, interesting, and probably fair. Poch has been quoted before as saying that he 'feels' how a game will go before kickoff, based on player moods and behaviours. That, when combined with his fierce loyalty to certain players and his delayed substitutions, doesn't really scream proactiveness.

However, what Bayern need is not what we need. Bayern need a 'last mile' manager- the winning mentality is there, the arrogance is there, the foundations for success are there.

All they need is a tactically astute, proactive manager to make the difference in the biggest games, the CL nights.

What Poch has utterly excelled in is the opposite, the big picture, long-term stuff - building the foundations, building the mentality, building the arrogance and hunger to challenge. We don't need a last-mile manager, we need a manager who can do the first 90% really, really well, with chance determining the last 10%.

Different needs. And Poch is utterly perfect for our needs, in every conceivable way.
 
An interesting review of the CL Final from Graham Hunter

At about 16 minutes he talks about the Kane/Moura choice, from the perspective of Steve Archibald who had had the same experience with Barca (injured, replacement scored a hattrick in the semi).
At about 20 minutes he talks about Bayern Munich's sporting director (Hasan Salihamadzic) saying they didn't chase Poch because they felt he is too slow to see issues and change the tactics.

https://play.acast.com/s/thebiginterviewwithgrahamhunter/championsleaguereview-punch-drunkinmadrid

While I've been critical of Poch not being decisive in games and making subs 10 mins late, I think he's got better in the last year with that. And in the CL final making the wrong change too early would have let pool in. I thought Poch might stregthen midfield or make a like for like sub earlier possibly, but we were on top and creating chances.
 
While I've been critical of Poch not being decisive in games and making subs 10 mins late, I think he's got better in the last year with that. And in the CL final making the wrong change too early would have let pool in. I thought Poch might stregthen midfield or make a like for like sub earlier possibly, but we were on top and creating chances.

Largely agree with you mate.

Personally, I would’ve removed Trippier, gone three at the back with Dier covering right, and left Dele on when Llorente entered the game. I saw signs of Dele/Rose/Kane/Son coming to life, and with Llorente again proving a handful, just felt his ghost-running might’ve resulted in a couple more definitive chances. A gamble of course, but at 1-0 down with 12 mins or whatever left, I would’ve taken it.

But again, he got us there, he knows the squad better than I and he has earned my trust. It didn’t work out. I am sure he did everything humanly possible to try and get it done.
 
An interesting review of the CL Final from Graham Hunter

At about 16 minutes he talks about the Kane/Moura choice, from the perspective of Steve Archibald who had had the same experience with Barca (injured, replacement scored a hattrick in the semi).
At about 20 minutes he talks about Bayern Munich's sporting director (Hasan Salihamadzic) saying they didn't chase Poch because they felt he is too slow to see issues and change the tactics.

https://play.acast.com/s/thebiginterviewwithgrahamhunter/championsleaguereview-punch-drunkinmadrid

Met Graham Hunter in Barca... I’ll be honest he came across as bit clueless but well connected

He is good mates with Archibald
 
Poch is quick to see issues and change tactics, IMO.

Usually he addresses it on the field during the game, rather that by making subs. Ive lost count of the times its been noted we played 3 or 4 distinct formations/styles during a single match.

If I had to complain about Poch Id say its that he plays it a bit too safe for me.

Against Liverpool I advocated a MF/Front line of

.........Sissoko.....Eriksen
Moura..........Alli...........Son
................Kane

And I stand by it - but knew all along Poch would start as he did.

He hasn’t also gone full brick or bust in cup games to get results and it’s worked
 
But yes ultimately clubs, managers, players, are all remembered for their achievements in the game, trophies...it is shallow I admit but I feel it’s the truth.

Mate, other have responded to your questions, let me make a few points

- Tottenham Hotspur have won less than 20 titles/trophies in over 130 years of existence, so I'm not sure what success you are comparing Poch to.
- The run of top 4/5 finishes we are on is actually the most consistent in the history of the club
- The clubs you referenced, Leicester, Wigan, etc simply had their once in 50 years fluke happen in the recent past, if any of them repeated the success you might have a point but all of them have reverted to norm.

I really don't mean to be a dingdong, but if you follow the sport for trophies, you have picked the wrong club. We will be better placed in the future, but if you are expecting trophies every year or two, again very misplaced sense of entitlement considering current state of game.

But even if we accept every one of your criticisms as gospel, what is your alternative?

- What manager better than Poch are we going to attract over PSG, Barca, United, Chelsea, Juve (who all will likely require a new manager now or in next 12 months)
- Who are you going to buy to change the squad results and how are we going to close the gap and get a better squad knowing that each of our rivals (who already spend 2X+ wages and have spent between 350M+ - 1.2B+ on their current squads) are also likely to spend another 200M each this summer?

I completely understand frustration, want us to do better, all your points but the real world doesn't work like that.

Tottenham Hotspur is not an elite club, let that sink in. I love this club for some tribal instinct that I cannot explain, and I wish we could win every trophy every year and maybe one day we will (after all, 15 years ago playing in Europe was a dream), but to sit here and try to pick apart every decision Poch, Levy make, and every performance each player gives compared to clubs that have decades of advantage over us is just a bit like complaining you weren't born rich and don't understand why the other asshole drives the bugatti ..
 
Sigh. Trust me Nigeyman, you won’t ever be shouted down IMO.

I cannot find your initial questions, so will hopefully address a couple of them in the following thoughts on Saturday.

1) I personally would’ve started Lucas as I believe Kane off the bench with 30 to go and the temp some 15 degrees cooler plus a tiring Liverpool would’ve been excellent.

2) We will never know the true game plan because of that horrendous penalty decision which changed everything.

3) I would personally have loved Jan as skipper this season.

4) I personally would’ve gone 3 at the back with 15 to go, removed Tripps, asked Dier to cover that side and left Dele on as he was just starting to click into connective gear IMO.

5) I think Poch will learn from this match. Last season, after Juve, he learned a lot and applied some. Next season he will apply even more. He makes mistakes but critically, he proves that he learns from them.

6) He has managed this season with one arm tied behind his back and people slashing at his hamstrings. THREE “home” stadiums in a season? Inability to move players on? Knowledge that any money spent this season on half-targets fudges us for this summer ( we now have serious money)? IMO he has done extraordinary things.

7) I disagree wholeheartedly with your Burnley whinge. I wish he did more of it. Your continuity club have bred managers who do it week in week out.

8) FWIW Simeone would also be the only choice for me if Poch were to ever leave.

9) When he makes mistakes he does not hide. More importantly, he is allowed to make mistakes IMO. He does some things I disagree with, but his overall track record is amazing.

10) Klopp -an excellent manager IMO and someone I genuinely like from what I see of him- has had serious funds. He also has greater experience. He learned from what, two other CL final losses? He “Mourinho’d” us once he got the gift. I don’t begrudge him that, even though I don’t like it.

I believe that when everything is weighed out, Poch is a wonderful, wonderful manager who has done things for our club that no other manager in football could’ve done. What would Pep have done with no real money? What would Klopp have done without real money? Great managers, yes, but resource rich.

If you believe Chelsea are a model for consistency, then we have different desires when it comes to the “c” word. They are built on filthy oligarch cash, and they have thrown it around with no regard, finally getting busted when even the corrupt fools at Uefa could no longer ignore. Look, if that is something you feel justifies “winning” good luck to you. Not me.

Finally, to return to my initial point a couple of days ago.
I simply said it would be great if people could possibly shut up with all this hindsight stuff for a few days.
That was all.
But apparently, because I didn’t say it in a way which you approved of, you have continued to make snide references.

What a shame.
I remember when we exchanged views harmoniously.
Oh well. We will survive.

I stand by my feeling that conversations about the manager and his relative competence should've respectfully waited for a few days after the final whistle, but understand this is an internet forum and such thoughts are naive.

What a shame.

Here’s to Mauricio Pochettino - hopefully our manager for years to come-continuing to grow and bring us to even greater heights...

...in my personal opinion.

Steff,

Something has clearly gone very awry between us, were aboard the titanic heading for an iceberg, now I’m going to try my utmost to get my following words right, why? because way back when I first joined this forum and made my first post, back in 2013 or so, and people were wondering who this little upstart opinionated so and so was, you the very first and I mean the very FIRST! To make me feel welcome and accepted on here! So whilst I wouldn’t dare to hope that we will be rocking about in an antique car, sliding our hands down the back window, perhaps maybe just maybe once you have carefully read this I might be able to stand at the front of the ship, my arms outstretched, as you embrace me and we both drink in a beautiful sunset... we shall see.

The unpleasant things first...yesterday when I got in from work, I did indeed spend some happy time with my 7 month old daughter ‘Ilithyia’ surprising as it is I was in a very happy mood.

My messages about ‘cheer u up later’ game of thrones analogy’ (because we have opposing views)and calling my daughter Mauricia (me making myself look hypocritical in naming my daughter after our manager after having a pop at him) was only my poor attempt at humour and to try and break the tension between us.

I very much regret you have interpreted this as snide remarks, it really wasn’t meant to be so.

Pochettino, we have clearly different views, but I have tried to make it very clear to both yourself and others on here, that I very much respect their opinions albeit those beliefs were, but are no longer my own.

I genuinely admire you ferocious passion to defend him I really do.

Whether or not we agree on something steff, and again going back to what I said about when I joined here, I have always held the utmost respect for you, and still continue to do so, although in plain terms the way you addressed ‘Jurgen’ the other day, was for me, very much beneath you, and not something I have seen from you before.

Yet I think I know why 1. You wanted a delay before the bone picking 2. You spoke to Jurgen that way because ‘forgive me’ you are emotional because you (like me) are still very much hurting from that result.

Many like yourself maybe disappointed in me and feel I have changed for the worse but consider I may not be the only one.

The steff I knew would perhaps reflect on how he spoke and set things to rights, of course I’d never presume to tell you what to do.

Lastly the chavski thing to clear up. Robspur made a case I believe in sticking with Poch as our likeliest chance to win trophies, I mentioned them as a counter to that point, that’s all mate, I am fully on board with your way of thinking towards them, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for me to point out they have chopped and changed management yet delivered titles on an annoyingly regular basis.

That’s all I want to say, no more pitches, I’ll let you decide whether I’m being genuine or otherwise.

Thanks for answering those questions as well.
 
Mate, other have responded to your questions, let me make a few points

- Tottenham Hotspur have won less than 20 titles/trophies in over 130 years of existence, so I'm not sure what success you are comparing Poch to.
- The run of top 4/5 finishes we are on is actually the most consistent in the history of the club
- The clubs you referenced, Leicester, Wigan, etc simply had their once in 50 years fluke happen in the recent past, if any of them repeated the success you might have a point but all of them have reverted to norm.

I really don't mean to be a dingdong, but if you follow the sport for trophies, you have picked the wrong club. We will be better placed in the future, but if you are expecting trophies every year or two, again very misplaced sense of entitlement considering current state of game.

But even if we accept every one of your criticisms as gospel, what is your alternative?

- What manager better than Poch are we going to attract over PSG, Barca, United, Chelsea, Juve (who all will likely require a new manager now or in next 12 months)
- Who are you going to buy to change the squad results and how are we going to close the gap and get a better squad knowing that each of our rivals (who already spend 2X+ wages and have spent between 350M+ - 1.2B+ on their current squads) are also likely to spend another 200M each this summer?

I completely understand frustration, want us to do better, all your points but the real world doesn't work like that.

Tottenham Hotspur is not an elite club, let that sink in. I love this club for some tribal instinct that I cannot explain, and I wish we could win every trophy every year and maybe one day we will (after all, 15 years ago playing in Europe was a dream), but to sit here and try to pick apart every decision Poch, Levy make, and every performance each player gives compared to clubs that have decades of advantage over us is just a bit like complaining you weren't born rich and don't understand why the other Donald Trump drives the bugatti ..

Just read this.

This is a brilliant post mate, and exactly the kind of decent conversation I want to get into on here.

I’m a little exhausted after my sex pitch to steff but I will most definitely get back to you on this once I have addressed er another poster on here.
 
No. They're for discussing opinions, letting the discussions come to natural conclusions and moving on.

Nigel is unable to move on and continues to wind people up, feels very deliberate to me. It was sad at the start, now it's just pathetic.
This is really getting tedious now mate.

I said before to Parklane that I can take hits, but I’ll be buggered in a month of Sunday’s if I’ll allow you of all people to brand me as a wind up merchant. The lord fudging mayor of replying to people’s posts with hyperbole and inflammatory words, designed with no other intention than provoking an aggressive response in a very un gentlemanlike fashion.

Even the briefest skim of your posting history shows to me a ‘tedious’ pattern of your usual posts.

One paragraph, start with words like ‘ffs’ ‘nonsense’ followed by username, followed by a little bit more of your thoughts but nothing with to much context so you could be challenged yourself, ending with words like ‘drivel’ or ‘deluded’

Ah let’s talk about ‘pathetic’ something or someone who goes from 0mph to angry in 3 seconds flat whilst others at least have the good grace to go through ‘second’ ‘third’ ‘fourth’ gear before arriving to that point. Robspur who I know is probably still hand shaking mad with me and would have no qualms of whipping down his kecks flicking open a newspaper and pooping all over my beautifully manicured front lawn, at least had enough about him to address the points I raised in good faith, something I have enormous respect for.

Now I wonder what I could feel ‘sad’ about...ah yes I feel sad that I have to react to a fellow spurs fan in this way. Yes absolutely, sad that you epitomise to me what I believe is a falling of standards on this forum over the last few years with how people interact with one another and in the way they conduct themselves when they have different views.

Also sad that Dubai had to make you aware that your as guilty as a little puppy sitting next to a little lump of poop, for berating people as lesser fans when that don’t share a way of thinking when it’s exactly what YOU do your goddamn self!

So in conclusion and with a clear desire to be ‘moving on’ perhaps we can both agree it’s in ours and the rest of this forums best interests that we ignore each other and not comment on each other’s ramblings from this point forth.

I get people being angry with me but it’s clearly escaped your keen eyes that in most of my exchanges, I have not tried to inflame any tensions and thus worked against being a wind up merchant the very thing your so adamant that I am.

P.s when you call me by my name ‘Nigel’ just before insulting me it really gives me a stiffy.
 
Right. So who do we want out? Poch, the Iranian Leo Sayer or Nigel?


Scara: Sissoko


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
Steff,

Something has clearly gone very awry between us, were aboard the titanic heading for an iceberg, now I’m going to try my utmost to get my following words right, why? because way back when I first joined this forum and made my first post, back in 2013 or so, and people were wondering who this little upstart opinionated so and so was, you the very first and I mean the very FIRST! To make me feel welcome and accepted on here! So whilst I wouldn’t dare to hope that we will be rocking about in an antique car, sliding our hands down the back window, perhaps maybe just maybe once you have carefully read this I might be able to stand at the front of the ship, my arms outstretched, as you embrace me and we both drink in a beautiful sunset... we shall see.

The unpleasant things first...yesterday when I got in from work, I did indeed spend some happy time with my 7 month old daughter ‘Ilithyia’ surprising as it is I was in a very happy mood.

My messages about ‘cheer u up later’ game of thrones analogy’ (because we have opposing views)and calling my daughter Mauricia (me making myself look hypocritical in naming my daughter after our manager after having a pop at him) was only my poor attempt at humour and to try and break the tension between us.

I very much regret you have interpreted this as snide remarks, it really wasn’t meant to be so.

Pochettino, we have clearly different views, but I have tried to make it very clear to both yourself and others on here, that I very much respect their opinions albeit those beliefs were, but are no longer my own.

I genuinely admire you ferocious passion to defend him I really do.

Whether or not we agree on something steff, and again going back to what I said about when I joined here, I have always held the utmost respect for you, and still continue to do so, although in plain terms the way you addressed ‘Jurgen’ the other day, was for me, very much beneath you, and not something I have seen from you before.

Yet I think I know why 1. You wanted a delay before the bone picking 2. You spoke to Jurgen that way because ‘forgive me’ you are emotional because you (like me) are still very much hurting from that result.

Many like yourself maybe disappointed in me and feel I have changed for the worse but consider I may not be the only one.

The steff I knew would perhaps reflect on how he spoke and set things to rights, of course I’d never presume to tell you what to do.

Lastly the chavski thing to clear up. Robspur made a case I believe in sticking with Poch as our likeliest chance to win trophies, I mentioned them as a counter to that point, that’s all mate, I am fully on board with your way of thinking towards them, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for me to point out they have chopped and changed management yet delivered titles on an annoyingly regular basis.

That’s all I want to say, no more pitches, I’ll let you decide whether I’m being genuine or otherwise.

Thanks for answering those questions as well.


Appreciate this mate.
Yes, I get emotional and defensive of the side at such times. I had made a long journey to be there, and in fairness, probably would’ve been best advised to avoid the internet for a few days!!!! I will say that truthfully, no response is beneath me because, well, it was me. I stand by it.

That being said, we move on my friend and great to see we can find if not agreement (which is unimportant), resolution (which is most important).

Apologies for any dingdonginess on my part.
COYS!
 
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