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Maggie

people seem to be confusing the person with the party, she wasn't a tyrannical dictator, she was the figurehead of policies put together by many many people

I'm finding the personal attacks quite distasteful, especially the left wing press, today's socialist worker for example is particularly disgusting, rejoice because a little old lady had a stroke and died

I find the gloating distasteful too. But.... little old lady had a stroke and died?? Talk about soft tone.

This is the same person who committed British servicemen to attempt a huge high risk operation in the Falklands, thousands of miles from home, to retrieve the huge fudgeup her and her Government created in the first place. How many were killed..... on both sides? Still, some were killed by BRITISH weapons supplied.

This is the same person who wrecked whole areas and communities in the north and midlands, causing decades of despair for many.

This is the same person whose actions have caused this country to be two countries... north and south.

This is the same person who screwed the mindset of the country.

Some little old lady. Not a nice one, like my gran was, thats for sure. My gran never hurt anyone.
 
1. Yet again, people in Surrey didn't have their job base decimated. Having choices means opportunity. Having no choice does not.

It was the wage/condition demands of the very unions you defend that meant those jobs had to disappear. Had we been able to compete on a global level then there was an (albeit small) possibility that those jobs could have continued.

2. Job opportunities/alternatives in Surrey were/are FAR better than the areas Thatcher decimated, so retraining (if its available) is far more likely to bear fruit. Redundant miners in Barnsley did not have these choices.

Unfortunately as yet, nobody has begun to police the North/South divide ;)

I like living where I live, it's a lovely part of the world, my friends and family are nearby, etc but if there were no jobs here (or even in this country) I'd go where the jobs were. Union subsidies would have been far better spent on relocation or education and it's not as if the miners in Barnsley didn't have much spare time on their hands in the 80s - they were never at work anyway.

3. School dropouts???? I presume by that comment you mean working class people going into traditional working class jobs, i.e. mining and steel mills.

No, I mean anyone without a complete education who expected to earn the wage of someone who had one.

Graduate wages??? Did you ever go down a pit, or into a steel mill?

Of course not, why would I do that?

I went down three pits: one was Treeton (went in paddy wagons under the M1) and one was a drift mine in Notts. I also went into British Steel Stainless by the M1. All school trips, but the real deal. The working conditions were horrible. Crawling along on hands and knees in Treeton. Helmet, respirator and light. A pit prop every yard. No more than a yard high. It was terrifying. The heat in the steel mill.... jeez, I was cooked after about 20 minutes.

These people earned every penny. Then the long term illnesses suffered by them later.

Whilst I don't doubt that the conditions were horrible, that's not what defines pay. Pay is defined (as with all market prices) by supply and demand. If you have a job anyone can do and there's a lot of people to do it, pay will be low. If you are so good at something rare that only a few people are as good as you, your pay will be high.

If you want a better example of your comment, look no further than the newspapermen of Wapping. Demanding ridiculous wages, only they didn't suffer long term illness caused by the job, as did steel and coal men, and had far better working conditions.

They were every bit as wrong as the miners. Technology superseded their skills and they should have seen that coming - the rest of the world did. Bullying through union membership was not, is not and never will be a morally correct way to do things.
 
Interesting reading, not had much negativity on my facebook or twitter feeds, in fact quite the opposite so it is interesting to read some of the anti posts on here.


Frankly, I think the reason why Maggie is so utterly despised by the left is because deep down, deep down they know she was right.



As it is a football site I will add an analogy. The most hated and despised figure in English football is surely Alex Ferguson. A vile human being, clearly a bully, manipulative, prepared to use any means necessary to make sure he wins. And he does. Why do I hate him? Because deep down, deep down I wish he was manager of my club.
 
Do you actually mean that?

Its dribble, and full of inaccuracy and untruth. Spouted by someone who has never been affected.

"New labour created a million extra civil service jobs mainly in the north because they wanted a new voter base"

Completely untrue. Civil service manpower has been run down steadily since the 1980's, and who instigated this in the first place... why Margaret Thatcher. Who else!

I assume you mean affected negatively? We were all affected, just for the vast majority of the country it was in a good way.

And please check your facts before stating them. If you look at the Civil Service's own figures (almost certainly understated due to bias) within two years of Labour coming back into power the numbers were on the rise again and only recently began to drop.
 
I assume you mean affected negatively? We were all affected, just for the vast majority of the country it was in a good way.

And please check your facts before stating them. If you look at the Civil Service's own figures (almost certainly understated due to bias) within two years of Labour coming back into power the numbers were on the rise again and only recently began to drop.

No. Civil service manpower since 1980 has been decimated. Thatcher slashed it dramatically in the 1980's. Small blips under Labour did not reverse that general trend. A million new civil service jobs.... in your dreams!

And I dispute the vast majority of the country was affected in a good way. The vast majority of the southern population, maybe....
 
Scara is spot on. New Labour's job creation initiative was mainly to employ people in low employment areas (typically Labour constituencies) by bringing them into the ermine lined rut of civil service employment. Middlesborough is the prime example, with 50% of those employed in the town working for the government at the fall of the Brown government.
 
Interesting reading, not had much negativity on my facebook or twitter feeds, in fact quite the opposite so it is interesting to read some of the anti posts on here.


Frankly, I think the reason why Maggie is so utterly despised by the left is because deep down, deep down they know she was right.



As it is a football site I will add an analogy. The most hated and despised figure in English football is surely Alex Ferguson. A vile human being, clearly a bully, manipulative, prepared to use any means necessary to make sure he wins. And he does. Why do I hate him? Because deep down, deep down I wish he was manager of my club.


Thats quite a claim. The smalish snag with it, though, is its wrong. The crux is, many deeply hate her because she was wrong.

The most hated person in English football is SAF? By whom? The most successful and the most effective, more like.
 
No. Civil service manpower since 1980 has been decimated. Thatcher slashed it dramatically in the 1980's. Small blips under Labour did not reverse that general trend. A million new civil service jobs.... in your dreams!

And I dispute the vast majority of the country was affected in a good way. The vast majority of the southern population, maybe....

I agree it's on a downward trend, and I also believe that 1M was a massive exaggeration. The facts are there though, on the civil service's own website - under Labour governments the number of civil service employees increases (and that's without counting all the other publicly employed workers) and under Conservative governments it decreases.

Surely you're not trying to argue that more civil servants is a good thing are you?
 
I agree it's on a downward trend, and I also believe that 1M was a massive exaggeration. The facts are there though, on the civil service's own website - under Labour governments the number of civil service employees increases (and that's without counting all the other publicly employed workers) and under Conservative governments it decreases.

Surely you're not trying to argue that more civil servants is a good thing are you?


I think it is better to keep people in jobs than to put them on the dole.
 
I find the gloating distasteful too. But.... little old lady had a stroke and died?? Talk about soft tone.

This is the same person who committed British servicemen to attempt a huge high risk operation in the Falklands, thousands of miles from home, to retrieve the huge fudgeup her and her Government created in the first place. How many were killed..... on both sides? Still, some were killed by BRITISH weapons supplied.

This is the same person who wrecked whole areas and communities in the north and midlands, causing decades of despair for many.

This is the same person whose actions have caused this country to be two countries... north and south.

This is the same person who screwed the mindset of the country.

Some little old lady. Not a nice one, like my gran was, thats for sure. My gran never hurt anyone.

my point is, she didn't do these things on a whim, she took the advice of hundreds of advisers and researchers in the civil service, it wasn't personal, she made the decisions she thought would be best for the country in the long term, by all means argue about the effectiveness of the policies but to to presume she made these decisions solely as a spiteful act to hurt people is grossly unfair
 
I think it is better to keep people in jobs than to put them on the dole.

Wow. Not a lot of things shock me, but you just have - well done!

I quite honestly thought that your view on economics died off around 80-90 years ago. So we keep people in jobs, how long for? Forever? You do realise what inflation and population growth will do to the public purse over time right? That's before we think about the pension pot (mistyped 'pit' in there and nearly left it in), the opportunity cost of those employees, the disincentives to education, hard work, etc.
 
Wow. Not a lot of things shock me, but you just have - well done!

I quite honestly thought that your view on economics died off around 80-90 years ago. So we keep people in jobs, how long for? Forever? You do realise what inflation and population growth will do to the public purse over time right? That's before we think about the pension pot (mistyped 'pit' in there and nearly left it in), the opportunity cost of those employees, the disincentives to education, hard work, etc.

I bet you'd be squealing like a pig, if the boot was on the other foot. I'm sick of of your puerile stereotyping and generalizations. Just hope the same never happens to you and yours.
 
I bet you'd be squealing like a pig, if the boot was on the other foot. I'm sick of of your puerile stereotyping and generalizations. Just hope the same never happens to you and yours.

I'm sure I'd complain a lot. I'd also go and find a job and not restrict my entire world view to a 5 mile radius because of some ridiculous mistaken belief that I was owed a living.
 
I don't have the will to get too involved in the Maggie debate but I've always found one thing surrounding the debate around her very strange.

You can think she is the best PM we have ever had, a true visionary and a great leader. Fair enough, you're more than entitled to your opinion, as should everyone. It may very well be the correct one.

However, many of these people cannot seem to fathom the very real reasons why other British people may not see her in the same way or may indeed openly hate her. To say that the only reason people hate her is because deep down they know she's right is preposterous.
 
I don't have the will to get too involved in the Maggie debate but I've always found one thing surrounding the debate around her very strange.

You can think she is the best PM we have ever had, a true visionary and a great leader. Fair enough, you're more than entitled to your opinion, as should everyone. It may very well be the correct one.

However, many of these people cannot seem to fathom the very real reasons why other British people may not see her in the same way or may indeed openly hate her. To say that the only reason people hate her is because deep down they know she's right is preposterous.

I think it's a major reason why for many. For many others it's the feeling that their situation is more important than the good of the country as a whole.
 
When Margaret Thatcher won the 1979 election, Britain was a country on its knees, a discredited, impoverished post-imperial nation in seemingly terminal decline, with ruthless union bosses imposing their will on a gutless establishment, cripplingly high inflation, a tax regime that forbade entrepreneurship and ambition, and an antiquated class system still in full sway. Dozens of key industries were being slowly throttled by state ownership, mismanagement and labour issues, one couldn’t take money freely out of the country and mindsets were narrow and insular. For the ambitious, there was no hope but to leave the UK, its parochialism, dire prospects and even worse food.

Thatcher changed all of this. Her policies were painful – shutting down unsustainable firms and improving productivity levels led to a surge in unemployment, which has remained with us ever since, though jobless rates went up internationally and any government would eventually have had to axe loss-making industries.

Ultimately, however, her supply-side reforms paved the way for our economic rebirth. She slashed the top rate of tax from 98 per cent on investment income and 83 per cent on labour income to just 40 per cent; she sold off dozens of state firms; she tackled inflation, albeit at the cost of an unavoidable recession. She shifted the burden of taxation from income to consumption, eventually defeated the unions, smashing closed shops and restrictive practices.

The cultural revolution during her time in office mirrored the economic revolution. When she arrived in office, 67 per cent of the country belonged to the C2DE economic class – the so-called working class – but when she left office that had fallen to just 51 per cent and has continued to collapse, according to Ipsos Mori. Aspiration was unleashed.

She swept away many of the old class barriers and her cabinet was open to all the talents, regardless of background and religions; home ownership increased substantially and sustainably, helped by the massive sell-off of council homes to their owners at a discount.

The City was transformed, with the Big Bang, an inflow of foreign capital and talent and the rise of upwardly mobile, hard-working and high rolling yuppie; the hugely significant Canary Wharf project was kicked-started; and the privatisations of the commanding heights of the economy ushered in an age of mass share ownership, turning the City from quaint backwater to global powerhouse.

She enjoyed her share of good fortune, as well as some bad luck. North Sea oil poured in; however, this sent the pound shooting up, a development which helped hurt manufacturers. Thatcher’s astonishingly firm handling of the Falklands crisis rescued her premiership and gave her enough time to see the recovery through. The Labour party embrace of an extreme ideology and poor leaders, and the rise the new social democratic party, which split the left-wing vote, was another great boon. But the horrors of IRA terrorism were a nightmare and the Conservative party suffered many horrendous murders. As luck had it, Thatcher was in power at the same time as her kindred spirit Ronald Reagan; the two fought communism together.

Thatcherism worked. Take one (of course imperfect) measure: ONS figures suggest the economy grew by 3.03 per cent a year in the 1950s, 3.18 per cent a year in the 1960s, 2.07 per cent in the 1970s, accelerating back to 3.09 per cent in the 1980s under Thatcher, before expanding by 2.77 per cent in the 1990s (when her legacy largely remained) and by 1.77 per cent in the 2000s.

The report of the LSE growth commission is emphatic: by the late 1970s, the UK had been left behind, with US GDP per capita 40 per cent higher than Britain’s and the top European economies 10-15 per cent ahead. By 2007, however, UK GDP per capita had overtaken France’s and Germany’s and reduced significantly the gap with the US, a position which hasn’t really changed since, despite the US and Germany’s better performance over the past couple of years.

The first Thatcher years were marred by a terrible recession, which reduced the average growth rate of the 1980s quite substantially, even accounting for the unsustainable, cheap money-fuelled growth towards the end. This also helps to explain why her cuts to the public sector as a share of GDP look relatively modest. But spending actually shot up in the early 1980s as a result of the recession, so the decline from peak to trough was much more impressive.

But while Thatcher saved Britain, she also made mistakes. All came from her turning her back on her core principles. When she was education secretary, she implemented disastrous anti-Grammar school policies. She was wrong to sign the Single European Act. She regretted this deeply subsequently. She was wrong to allow herself to be convinced to join the European exchange rate mechanism; together with a poor monetary policy by chancellor Lord Lawson, who allowed the broad money supply to rocket, this led to a boom in the late 1980s and another recession. The poll tax meant huge tax hikes on the many, and was thus rightly rejected by an angry public.

For all of those errors, she was a superb Prime Minister, the best peacetime leader of the twentieth century. She and Winston Churchill were the only two truly great PMs of the last hundred years; Churchill saved the UK in wartime and Thatcher saved Britain from economic and cultural catastrophe. May she rest in peace.
 
Wow. Not a lot of things shock me, but you just have - well done!

I quite honestly thought that your view on economics died off around 80-90 years ago. So we keep people in jobs, how long for? Forever? You do realise what inflation and population growth will do to the public purse over time right? That's before we think about the pension pot (mistyped 'pit' in there and nearly left it in), the opportunity cost of those employees, the disincentives to education, hard work, etc.

And what about the economics of comparative costs; all the benefits paid out, housing etc, social costs etc etc. People in jobs support families, pay mortgages, buy cars, pay for holidays, buy goods and services, and put back into the community.

Disincentives to education, hard work? Why is that? People in all areas geographically have gone into education, in the past, where they could/wanted to. Hard work? How is that an issue?

As for moving for jobs: not really a luxury that all have (or want to do).
 
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