Lucas Bergvall

[Mosquito_Coasting]

I don't think Bergvall looked disappointed or unenthused. I noticed in the huddle at the beginning he was doing the talking and he was way more visible on the pitch than Tonali or Gallagher. He had a bad game but part of that was due to him not hiding imo. I agree with all the people saying he has no fixed skill set that fits a position though. Gray looked far more unenthused which is fair enough seeing as he is always having to play in desperate backlines.

 

[metalgear]

I’ll probably take some brick for this but has Bergvall ever really had a good game for us? I can’t remember one and I still don’t know what sort of player he is.

He obviously has talent and he’s young but I’m not too bothered if he goes. I’ve seen a lot more from Gray for example. Gray had a spell under Tudor particularly (the AM second leg being the pinnacle) where I could see what he can become. Bergvall? Not so much.

goal and assist against west ham

if i recall correctly he had a concussion soon after

 

[harr1984]

I’ll probably take some brick for this but has Bergvall ever really had a good game for us? I can’t remember one and I still don’t know what sort of player he is.

He obviously has talent and he’s young but I’m not too bothered if he goes. I’ve seen a lot more from Gray for example. Gray had a spell under Tudor particularly (the AM second leg being the pinnacle) where I could see what he can become. Bergvall? Not so much.

Happy to see him stay as I think he has some talent undoubtedly. But don't know what he's supposed to be exactly and that is a concern considering the amount of time he's been here now. The way people were losing their brick about potentially selling him for around 50m was crazy considering what he's actually done in a Spurs shirt to date.

It's like people on here because of our transfer ethos in the past to buy young and hope they turn out really good have been trained to think that because a player is young and have some form of ability they are going to end up being amazing and that's better than having an older option who has actually proved they have quality....

 

[Mikey10]

Yep, he'll find his level.

I think the fact that we’re not really any closer to knowing what that is, despite him having featured for us on almost 80 occasions now, is a concern.

It could eventually be as a driving force at a very successful Bayern; or it might be getting sent off for Leicester in League One. It’s probably most likely to be somewhere in between - a regular in a team like Forest or Napoli.

 

[Legohamster]

I absolutely picked up on his vibe, yes. Strange.

He spends the summer saying he wants minutes, then throws in a stinker and looks like he wants to be anywhere else when he starts the first game

 

[harr1984]

He spends the summer saying he wants minutes, then throws in a stinker and looks like he wants to be anywhere else when he starts the first game

This did stand out a bit for me too. I'm wary of criticising individuals when it's bad performances all round, but considering he wanted to leave and has been given the chance to prove his worth his attitude appeared poor and more bothered about that side of things than his actual performance on the ball etc.

Not going to go overboard as it was just one of those days where it was a stinker all round, but this highlights why a lot of the squad needs to be gutted - the attitude of a lot of these players appears to be questionable from the outside looking in....

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

This did stand out a bit for me too. I'm wary of criticising individuals when it's bad performances all round, but considering he wanted to leave and has been given the chance to prove his worth his attitude appeared poor and more bothered about that side of things than his actual performance on the ball etc.

Not going to go overboard as it was just one of those days where it was a stinker all round, but this highlights why a lot of the squad needs to be gutted - the attitude of a lot of these players appears to be questionable from the outside looking in....

But was slightly better than a player we spent 85m on who also threw up a stinker

 

[Bishop]

But was slightly better than a player we spent 85m on who also threw up a stinker

Nah he was definetly the worse of the two, not that Tonali was good either.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Nah he was definetly the worse of the two, not that Tonali was good either.

Whatever it was it was marginal, I don't think going after Bergvall makes any sense as I don't Tonali either. 20 year old lad who is still learning his trade.

 

[harr1984]

Whatever it was it was marginal, I don't think going after Bergvall makes any sense as I don't Tonali either. 20 year old lad who is still learning his trade.

To be fair Marty not going after him, literally said 'wary of criticising individuals when it's a bad performance all round'.

But there are valid concerns that are allowed to be highlighted - we still don't know what type of midfielder he is, that's not all on him of course. But the fact every manager tries him out in different positions is concerning as appears they don't really know either. I'm confident RDZ has the right vision for him so will be interesting to see where he plays. But it's a valid question, yes he is young so we don't need to expect him to be putting in stellar performances week after week but not unreasonable for us to know what type of midfielder he is looking to become.

And considering he wanted to leave because he wasn't going to apparently get the first team chances he wanted I didn't think his attitude looked like someone especially for first game of the season who wanted to show the boss 'You can't sell me'. I don't mind his on the ball stuff not working as everyone was poor, but I didn't think his attitude looked great from where I was watching.

Hopefully in the coming weeks both question marks are answered, I don't think anyone on here particularly questions he has some talent - just how, if at all can be harnessed in this league....

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

And considering he wanted to leave because he wasn't going to apparently get the first team chances he wanted I didn't think his attitude looked like someone especially for first game of the season who wanted to show the boss 'You can't sell me'. I don't mind his on the ball stuff not working as everyone was poor, but I didn't think his attitude looked great from where I was watching.

In what respect though, thats a fairly generic statement, having a poor game isn't IMO a sign of a poor attitude, so what did you see specifically that made you think that

 

[Push and run]

To be fair Marty not going after him, literally said 'wary of criticising individuals when it's a bad performance all round'.

But there are valid concerns that are allowed to be highlighted - we still don't know what type of midfielder he is, that's not all on him of course. But the fact every manager tries him out in different positions is concerning as appears they don't really know either. I'm confident RDZ has the right vision for him so will be interesting to see where he plays. But it's a valid question, yes he is young so we don't need to expect him to be putting in stellar performances week after week but not unreasonable for us to know what type of midfielder he is looking to become.

And considering he wanted to leave because he wasn't going to apparently get the first team chances he wanted I didn't think his attitude looked like someone especially for first game of the season who wanted to show the boss 'You can't sell me'. I don't mind his on the ball stuff not working as everyone was poor, but I didn't think his attitude looked great from where I was watching.

Hopefully in the coming weeks both question marks are answered, I don't think anyone on here particularly questions he has some talent - just how, if at all can be harnessed in this league....

Good analysis. I have been recalling his better games and the common thread in those (West Ham away, Liverpool home and a couple of others) saw him arriving in the box at speed. I suspect his best role is as a Lampard/Dele type. Neither of those players were asked to press anywhere as much as midfielders now, although Dele was a phenomenal athlete and Lampard was a high class all-round midfielder.

I may be completely wrong, but as you say, none of our managers seem to know what kind of player he is either.

 

[Robspur12]

But was slightly better than a player we spent 85m on who also threw up a stinker

I know you are trying to balance the negativity but Tonali is proven PL quality over multiple seasons hence his transfer fee. I think he'll be a really good signing. Lucas, hasn't really progressed here. He's making the same mistakes as he has always made. I remember his first game under De Zerbi where he was also hooked at half time iirc. He also indicated he wanted to leave before RDZ talked him around.

Look, no one knows if this kid is going to develop into a really decent player, I hope for his sake he does. But I think he needs a fresh start away from Spurs. £46 million given we sold our former captain for 12 grand less is really good money imho.

 

[harr1984]

In what respect though, thats a fairly generic statement, having a poor game isn't IMO a sign of a poor attitude, so what did you see specifically that made you think that

That's why I'm trying to separate what I thought his attitude looked like vs what he did with the ball. I just thought his demeanour looked poor, didn't look like he wanted to show why he should be there. But I accept totally it was a bad day all round hence why I'm not going to be over critical of him.

But I did expect him to show a bit more regardless of what was going on around him considering his willingness to leave at the prospect of not being given an opportunity. If you think that's overly harsh fair play, perhaps it is - but that's how I felt, and I'm not looking to criticise him any further than that really....

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I know you are trying to balance the negativity but Tonali is proven PL quality over multiple seasons hence his transfer fee. I think he'll be a really good signing. Lucas, hasn't really progressed here. He's making the same mistakes as he has always made. I remember his first game under De Zerbi where he was also hooked at half time iirc. He also indicated he wanted to leave before RDZ talked him around.

I think he is an absolutely tremendous signing, I have said that everywhere but its true, they both played poorly which I think was indicative of the entire teams performance. I don't think it was especially an indication on anything about Bergvall, I certainly don't buy into the idea there is something to question with his attitude either.

I am not going to be deliberately down on the new players, I do think with the money we have spent I do also think there is a bigger expectation on them than there should be in the likes of Bergvall, especially when in some areas we have made a clear intent (in the case of defence) where we have shifted heaven, earth and players to build a team around them.

Look, no one knows if this kid is going to develop into a really decent player, I hope for his sake he does. But I think he needs a fresh start away from Spurs. £46 million given we sold our former captain for 12 grand less is really good money imho.

TBH I think he is fine here as long as there is an acceptance that he is still in development, RDZ touched on it post game and said exactly that.

 

[Finney Is Back]

The difference between Tonali and Bergval on Saturday is that Tonali didn’t lose the ball twice in really dangerous central areas close to our penalty area trying really risky dribbles. On Saturday one of those occasions resulted in a good chance for Brentford and the other resulted in a goal.

the worrying thing for me is that this isn’t a new thing for Bergval, I see him do this every game he plays for us.

I think he needs to learn where he should and shouldn’t take risk on the football pitch. Unfortunately I don’t think we can allow him to learn this playing for us. I think it would therefore work out best for him and us if he moves on and gains experience elsewhere. I’d love that to be on loan as I think he has a chance of becoming a very good player but I doubt Bergval will be prepared to move on loan.

 

[fernadez]

Last season people complained that he wasn't a 10 when Frank played him there. Truthfully his attributes are unbalanced so there's no position he suits right now.

He has the ability to beat his man so AM should suit, but he has no passing vision or range to open up the game or pass through the lines once he's beaten this man. So in the AM he's really just relying on getting shots off. If he scores them then he'll be lauded as a great AM even without the creativity side of things but if he's not scoring or offering any direct threat himself the same complaints that were made about him in the 10blast season will reoccur. Tbh I think he needs to go back into the oven but his development as a player is no where near complete and he isn't ready for PL games for us.

Currently we're playing a player there who has no vision or range and can't beat his man.

Bergvall by default then is the better option out of the two of them. I don't know what his actual position is, but playing someone who's natural instinct is to dribble round someone rather then play it safe in front of the defence is asking for trouble.

Fernandes should be back so it'll be him and Tonali, but I don't actually see why Gallagher can't play there, or at least play 2 #8's rather then having him play as a #10.

 

[Bishop]

Currently we're playing a player there who has no vision or range and can't beat his man.

Bergvall by default then is the better option out of the two of them. I don't know what his actual position is, but playing someone who's natural instinct is to dribble round someone rather then play it safe in front of the defence is asking for trouble.

Fernandes should be back so it'll be him and Tonali, but I don't actually see why Gallagher can't play there, or at least play 2 #8's rather then having him play as a #10.

I think Gallagher's lack of passing just makes him pretty uninspired as an orthodox CM, all of his best aspects are off the ball, the runs, the pressures etc. He has some shooting threat from late runs but I don't really see it as a stand out attribute for him. Much like you I don't really see a strong shout for him starting there.

On the topic of Bergvall I think with a different balance than Gallagher it's kind of much the same. You'd want your AM/10 to be either a continuity passer who looks for the gaps (he's not that) or a direct box threat either from shots from distance or box crashing. It remains to be seen if he can offer that, like you mention his instinct to dribble probably puts in him position to be the direct threat, I'm not sure that he has that goal hungry instinct though.

I kind find myself not really thinking either suits the 10 but that on a perfect day they can contribute in that role but are more likely to leave us wanting.l generally. Neither seems a good fit for the role but Bergvall possibly has more total upside there if he's able to match the demands of the role. Until Kulu/Maddison and eventually Simmons are back we are going to have to make do.

 

[Ace Face]

I think Gallagher's lack of passing just makes him pretty uninspired as an orthodox CM, all of his best aspects are off the ball, the runs, the pressures etc. He has some shooting threat from late runs but I don't really see it as a stand out attribute for him. Much like you I don't really see a strong shout for him starting there.

On the topic of Bergvall I think with a different balance than Gallagher it's kind of much the same. You'd want your AM/10 to be either a continuity passer who looks for the gaps (he's not that) or a direct box threat either from shots from distance or box crashing. It remains to be seen if he can offer that, like you mention his instinct to dribble probably puts in him position to be the direct threat, I'm not sure that he has that goal hungry instinct though.

I kind find myself not really thinking either suits the 10 but that on a perfect day they can contribute in that role but are more likely to leave us wanting.l generally. Neither seems a good fit for the role but Bergvall possibly has more total upside there if he's able to match the demands of the role. Until Kulu/Maddison and eventually Simmons are back we are going to have to make do.

I think Bergvall is more suited to playing alongside a single pivot as one of the two 8/10s. However, having the player who can play as the lone pivot, such as Rodri, is a rarity and luxury these days.

I just don’t see him making the necessary improvements required for him to become a regular starter unfortunately. He still seems raw and quite immature for someone who has had as much PL gametime as he has. If he’s hasn’t made the step up after two seasons, why should we believe it will suddenly change this year?

I’d snatch someone’s hand off for 50 mil and put that towards a top CF.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think Gallagher's lack of passing just makes him pretty uninspired as an orthodox CM, all of his best aspects are off the ball, the runs, the pressures etc. He has some shooting threat from late runs but I don't really see it as a stand out attribute for him. Much like you I don't really see a strong shout for him starting there.

On the topic of Bergvall I think with a different balance than Gallagher it's kind of much the same. You'd want your AM/10 to be either a continuity passer who looks for the gaps (he's not that) or a direct box threat either from shots from distance or box crashing. It remains to be seen if he can offer that, like you mention his instinct to dribble probably puts in him position to be the direct threat, I'm not sure that he has that goal hungry instinct though.

I kind find myself not really thinking either suits the 10 but that on a perfect day they can contribute in that role but are more likely to leave us wanting.l generally. Neither seems a good fit for the role but Bergvall possibly has more total upside there if he's able to match the demands of the role. Until Kulu/Maddison and eventually Simmons are back we are going to have to make do.

The saddest element of this for me (and I generally agree with you BTW) is that of all the make-shift 10s we might operate, Sarr is the most effective (given that he is not a 10), however he is clearly being moved on. A shame IMO, but these are the moments where we must back the manager I suppose...I don't think Deki will ever be able to play that role for us/if he comes back and plays at all, Maddison is the current natural but will need to be shepherded through it, and Xavi? Yes indeed...I think he's got the tools and vision, especially with all those 'touch' players we're gathering.

With regards to Lucas, and in general comment not directed at you, I don't believe anyone is throwing shade on the player more than making very salient observations with regards to where he might well flourish and develop into the player he really wants to be. He has always had a very strong personality (which is a huge plus) and as such, it is clear when he is not 100%. I think we'd all agree he looked not at his most engaged or belief-laden, which for a player whose personality is such a big part of his game is a problem.