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Just how poor are England

screen nayim said:
Just back from Wembley. Honestly was like watching two pub teams. Truly shocking football.

I thought the worse thing was Danny Wellbeck getting MoM. Then I realised he actually was MoM, which immediately became the new worse thing.

Depressing.
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Andy Townsend was creaming himself at the glorious spectacle he was witnessing. He picked Wellbeck too, but it was apparently hard to single out just one guy.
 
Jordinho said:
Andy Townsend was creaming himself at the glorious spectacle he was witnessing. He picked Wellbeck too, but it was apparently hard to single out just one guy.
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I watched bits of the game down the pub but Welbeck MOTM?

The players who impressed were Baines, Rooney and I forget..oh Zaha and our guy who did very well defensively
 
Sandman said:
that is some serious spurs tinted goggles on there though. Wiltsher although a little scum bag is a very good player. And is just as good if not better than Dembele and will only get better as he is only 21. Paulinhio has proved noting yet for us or in the premiership, so to pick him over Gerrard is ludicrous. Same again with Chadli, not proved nothing yet and I dont know how you can choose Soldado over Rooney.
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Wheelchair just got marked out of the game by a pub team and Rooney's been poor for a couple of years (may regain form at another team though).
 
scaramanga said:
Wheelchair just got marked out of the game by a pub team and Rooney's been poor for a couple of years (may regain form at another team though).
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You watched a different game to me then. In the first half he was the only one picking up the ball and taking on the Scottish defensive line. Looking for 1-2's with the forwards. Gerrard just kept playing it out wide and cleverly had one good pass.

As for Rooney. He is not the same player as two years ago. But get him match fit and motivated and he is a beast in the premier league. Why do you Jose wants him?
 
onlyme said:
I watched bits of the game down the pub but Welbeck MOTM?

The players who impressed were Baines, Rooney and I forget..oh Zaha and our guy who did very well defensively
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Are you being sarcastic? Only Baines was ok out of that lot. Rooney looked of the pace all game, nothing came of for him. Although you can see he is still the intelligent player, just not match fit.

Zaha was rubbish. Every dribble got blocked and all his high crosses went nowhere. It was only the slip pass for Lambert's shot off the post that was any good. Why is he anywhere near the england team anyway. Did nothing for palace since Jan and proved nothing in the premier league yet.
 
If you look at the main framework of the England team its as follows:

Average players from the top four - Hart, Theo, Cahill
Bit part players from top four clubs - Jones, Cleverly, Welbeck, Zaha, Milner, Smalling, Ox-C,
Ageing class - Gerrard, Lampard, Cole
Regulars from the midtable - Baines, Jag, Johnson, Lambert
The Real Class - Wheelchair, Rooney as much as it pains me

The real issue here is there is no spine to this side that plays regular at the TOP TOP level of European football. The inclusions from the likes of Man United, Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea are made up in the most of players that don't play full time roles for them clubs. There are no inclusions playing top level football overseas either.

If you look at the Dutch, Brazillians, Germans and see where the bulk of their players are playing, and to what level, its usually the top to upper levels and regular

Even the Belgium lot are playing a higher level than us in club football when you compare it man for man....
 
Sandman said:
You watched a different game to me then. In the first half he was the only one picking up the ball and taking on the Scottish defensive line. Looking for 1-2's with the forwards. Gerrard just kept playing it out wide and cleverly had one good pass.

As for Rooney. He is not the same player as two years ago. But get him match fit and motivated and he is a beast in the premier league. Why do you Jose wants him?
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That must be the case then - in the game I watched he had a good first 5-10 minutes until Scotland realised they had to mark him. After that he kept running into trouble and giving it away.

As for Rooney, I agree that he can (and has been) a great player but he's not shown it in the league for a couple of years and never for England. Match fit and motivated is easier said than done when it comes to Rooney.
 
Grays_1890 said:
If you look at the main framework of the England team its as follows:

Average players from the top four - Hart, Theo, Cahill
Bit part players from top four clubs - Jones, Cleverly, Welbeck, Zaha, Milner, Smalling, Ox-C,
Ageing class - Gerrard, Lampard, Cole
Regulars from the midtable - Baines, Jag, Johnson, Lambert
The Real Class - Wheelchair, Rooney as much as it pains me

The real issue here is there is no spine to this side that plays regular at the TOP TOP level of European football. The inclusions from the likes of Man United, Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea are made up in the most of players that don't play full time roles for them clubs. There are no inclusions playing top level football overseas either.

If you look at the Dutch, Brazillians, Germans and see where the bulk of their players are playing, and to what level, its usually the top to upper levels and regular

Even the Belgium lot are playing a higher level than us in club football when you compare it man for man....
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I agree with this, but you've missed out Kyle Walker, which category does he fit in?

He was lucky not to get red carded last night - off the ball shirt tug when already booked. Fortunately the ref gave a foul and booking (Lampard IIRC) for an on the ball foul a second or two afterwards.

Finally, the inclusion of bit part Utd players really annoys. Cleverley, Jones, Wellbeck and now Zaha. How can Zaha be getting game time ahead of Lennon or Wellbeck ahead of Defoe? This isn't Spurs blindness as neither of our two is that great at international level (although Defoe's goal per minutes is as good as any recent striker). But they are both well ahead of the Utd. pair.
 
The weakest link in the chain - Hodgson.

Capello showed how to optimize the team given the constraints, but wasn't appreciated.

Harry for England then!
 
Sandman said:
Are you being sarcastic? Only Baines was ok out of that lot. Rooney looked of the pace all game, nothing came of for him. Although you can see he is still the intelligent player, just not match fit.

Zaha was rubbish. Every dribble got blocked and all his high crosses went nowhere. It was only the slip pass for Lambert's shot off the post that was any good. Why is he anywhere near the england team anyway. Did nothing for palace since Jan and proved nothing in the premier league yet.
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He has Fergie's stamp of approval, that's all you need really to get called up.
 
So many people over the past few years have blamed manager after manager. Truth is; the players are not good enough and many lack the ambition to want to play for their country.

I'm half English and half Italian. Coming from different backgrounds I can see a real difference between both the fans and the players. In Italy there is nothing better for a player than for them to play for their country while the fans think alike and make a big deal, all meeting up and making it a real family event when a game is on during the Euros/World cup. Playing for Italy is everything. Whether you play for Juventus, Milan, Inter, Napoli when the WC comes along everyone is in it together, standing side by side.

Now I'm not saying England isn't the same with dedicated followers and players with passion. The one reason I liked Beckham is because today he is/was one of the few players that genuinely loved playing for his country and that gets my respect. Same for Gerrard and a few others. What I hate is players and fans that put 'club' before 'country'. In my opinion that is exactly what is wrong with society and community. People should unite and want to compete against the World audience and say their country is best. Instead you get so called fans blaming every manager that takes charge while numpties like Bridge, Terry and Rio either doing the dirty on their teammates or refusing to play for their country because they want to focus on their league team.

People need to get together again and make a big deal of the national team. It should be the epitome of the sport for your country to say it's the best in the World and should be the target for all football fans. To see people say 'I don't follow England' is nothing short of irritating and in my opinion the people who say that really have got the sport all wrong.

Now make of that what you will. I'm sure many people will disagree; especially the club/country part but I couldn't care less. People like that are part of the reason England are looked upon as no threat in the big competitions and when a countries followers start losing respect for their team don't start expecting other countries to give respect either.
 
England Combined Full & U21 Squads (50 players)

Manchester United 12
Liverpool & Tottenham Hotspur 6
Chelsea 5

Theo Walcott (Arsenal), Jack Wheelchair (Arsenal)
Fraser Forster (Celtic)
Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Ashley Cole (Chelsea), Frank Lampard (Chelsea), Todd Kane (Blackburn Rovers, loan from Chelsea), Nathaniel Chalobah (Chelsea)
Will Hughes (Derby County)
Leighton Baines (Everton), Phil Jagielka (Everton), Ross Barkley (Everton), John Stones (Everton)
Glen Johnson (Liverpool), Steven Gerrard (Liverpool), Raheem Sterling (Liverpool), Daniel Sturridge (Liverpool), Jack Robinson (Blackpool, loan from Liverpool), Andre Wisdom (Liverpool)
Joe Hart (Emirates Marketing Project), James Milner (Emirates Marketing Project)
Phil Jones (Manchester United), Chris Smalling (Manchester United), Michael Carrick (Manchester United), Tom Cleverley (Manchester United), Wayne Rooney (Manchester United), Ashley Young (Manchester United), Danny Welbeck (Manchester United), Nick Powell (Manchester United), Tom Thorpe (Manchester United), Michael Keane (Manchester United), Jesse Lingaard (Manchester United), Wilfried Zaha (Manchester United)
Sammy Ameobi (Saudi Sportswashing Machine)
John Ruddy (Norwich City), Nathan Redmond (Norwich City)
George Long (Sheffield United)
Rickie Lambert (Southampton), James Ward-Prowse (Southampton), Luke Shaw (Southampton)
Eric Dier (Sporting Lisbon)
Jack Butland (Stoke City)
Connor Wickham (Sunderland)
Jonjo Shelvey (Swansea City)
Kyle Walker (Tottenham Hotspur), Andros Townsend (Tottenham Hotspur), Jermain Defoe (Tottenham Hotspur), Ezekiel Fryers (Tottenham Hotspur), Tom Carroll (Tottenham Hotspur), Harry Kane (Tottenham Hotspur)
Jonathan Bond (Watford)
Saido Berahino (West Bromwich Albion)
 
spursman17 said:
So many people over the past few years have blamed manager after manager. Truth is; the players are not good enough and many lack the ambition to want to play for their country.

I'm half English and half Italian. Coming from different backgrounds I can see a real difference between both the fans and the players. In Italy there is nothing better for a player than for them to play for their country while the fans think alike and make a big deal, all meeting up and making it a real family event when a game is on during the Euros/World cup. Playing for Italy is everything. Whether you play for Juventus, Milan, Inter, Napoli when the WC comes along everyone is in it together, standing side by side.

Now I'm not saying England isn't the same with dedicated followers and players with passion. The one reason I liked Beckham is because today he is/was one of the few players that genuinely loved playing for his country and that gets my respect. Same for Gerrard and a few others. What I hate is players and fans that put 'club' before 'country'. In my opinion that is exactly what is wrong with society and community. People should unite and want to compete against the World audience and say their country is best. Instead you get so called fans blaming every manager that takes charge while numpties like Bridge, Terry and Rio either doing the dirty on their teammates or refusing to play for their country because they want to focus on their league team.

People need to get together again and make a big deal of the national team. It should be the epitome of the sport for your country to say it's the best in the World and should be the target for all football fans. To see people say 'I don't follow England' is nothing short of irritating and in my opinion the people who say that really have got the sport all wrong.

Now make of that what you will. I'm sure many people will disagree; especially the club/country part but I couldn't care less. People like that are part of the reason England are looked upon as no threat in the big competitions and when a countries followers start losing respect for their team don't start expecting other countries to give respect either.
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i don't think anyone would disagree with you there - that player quality and commitment counts.
however you can't take the manager - and the FA out of the equation. Hiddink and South Korea's world cup exploits comes to mind.

this country needs less interference from the press, pundits and armchair coaches and let the real managers get on with their jobs.
 
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