Juande Ramos

[Neymar]

in that case, how can you really know ashley young is diving?
you cant conclusively prove that the "knock" that sent him down was enough or not enough to make him lose his balance.


also you talk about "cheats ruining the game". my definition of cheating would be something along the lines of: deliberately breaking the rules of the game to gain an unfair advantage.
and if you agree with my definition of cheating, every single player is a cheat (multiple times in each game).

all i can say for certain is that some of the stuff that charlie adam does is nothing short of assault. and is illegal and morally reprehensible as defined by national law. diving on the other hand isnt illegal (and is debatable whether it is immoral), and therefore, every effort must be made to ensure that the likes of charlie adam are punished to a more severe degree than a diver.

 

[Neymar]

There are some extreme examples when I've been genuinely sure that a player is intentionally trying to damage the career of another but that's what? Once every few years in the PL?

Ask anyone who has actually played football. There are players that go out to intentionally hurt/injure opposition players in every single game.

 

[Neymar]

"We know that Arsenal play good football but when you start kicking them a little bit, it gets harder for them," Nzonzi said. "They don't like it, we know that. We don't care. We'll keep on doing it, being strong and trying to be as good as we can be on the ball. Steven Nzonzi, March2014

Those are Nzonzi's quotes in the aftermath of the Stoke-Arsenal game.
In my opinion, these quotes are absolutely disgusting and disgraceful. He's advocating violence that is both against the rules of football and national law. Yet, there is little media coverage on it, and also more worryingly, little contempt shown against Nzonzi/Stoke by the footballing public.

If we adapt the quotes and Nzonzi had said:

"We know that Arsenal play good football but when you start diving against them a little bit, it gets harder for them," Nzonzi said. "They don't like it, we know that. We don't care."

I am confident there would be much more media coverage on it. For me it shows that the general footballing public (particularly in england) have need to have a look at their moral compass

 

[metalgear]

its the guys like nzonzi, pulis, adams that drive the simulation behaviour.
but lets face it human observation and judgement error is at the heart of it, the problem won't go away.

 

[mudshark]

Ask anyone who has actually played football. There are players that go out to intentionally hurt/injure opposition players in every single game.

Oh, rubbish, deliberate assaults are relatively rare nowadays. It did use to be a man's game, but the modern imperative to protect club assets as much as players' lucrative careers has all but turned it into a non-contact sport. It merely follows that the рuѕѕу divers and cheats are allowed to flourish.

 

[Neymar]

Oh, rubbish, deliberate assaults are relatively rare nowadays. It did use to be a man's game, but the modern imperative to protect club assets as much as players' lucrative careers has all but turned it into a non-contact sport. It merely follows that the рuѕѕу divers and cheats are allowed to flourish.

I disagree that deliberate assaults are "rare" (although what is rare or not is obviously subjective). Just look at how many times this season alone Charlie Adam has tried to maim opponents. Far too often for my likings.

And for what its worth, football has always been a non-contact sport. The only thing is, the refs are now more and more actually enforcing the rules of the game. Its not the "***** divers" that have been allowed to flourish, but actually the thugs that have been flourishing. Thankfully, we seem to be moving ever closer to a generation whereby these guys are being appropriately punished.

 

[mudshark]

I disagree that deliberate assaults are "rare" (although what is rare or not is obviously subjective). Just look at how many times this season alone Charlie Adam has tried to maim opponents. Far too often for my likings.

And for what its worth, football has always been a non-contact sport. The only thing is, the refs are now more and more actually enforcing the rules of the game. Its not the "***** divers" that have been allowed to flourish, but actually the thugs that have been flourishing. Thankfully, we seem to be moving ever closer to a generation whereby these guys are being appropriately punished.

You keep going on about Charlie Adam, but you'd struggle to put together a handful of the sort of incidents you're fretting about in an entire season nowadays (you ought to have watched a few games in the 70s and 80s; you might have had a point then). Now, though, the likes of Suarez and Young et al. <insert player="" Mourinho="">are getting away with rolling around as though pole-axed having either simulated or engineered contact multiple times virtually every game. Why? Because it's easier to con the officials than it is actually to stay on your feet and try to score a goal legally and, unlike trying to score, it's practically guaranteed to pay off, because the refs almost always buy it. That's why it ruins the game and costs it its entertainment value. Sometimes it seems as though more games get decided by poor officiation than by good football. Or rather, by a combination of cheating and poor officiation.</insert>

 

[Neymar]

i keep mentioning Charlie Adam because he is probably the most high profile case at the moment(Just like i keep mentioning Ashley Young as a diver). There are plenty more tho. But let me be clear. My point is that these incidents are far more offensive than dives. But i would also add that an offense such as a shirt tug is no different to a dive. And that happens all the time by every player. Hence my point that everyone cheats multiple times per game. However, for some reason people single out divers. Hence, my opinion that there is massive hypocrisy here.

I would also say that there are way more than a handful of "assault-like" incidents per season. But even a handful is way too many. And yes I agree that there were more thugs in the 70's and 80's than there are now. Whats your point tho?

You say diving "ruins the game and costs entertainment value". If i'm totally honest i'm not sure what my personal view is on this (i'm impartial for now). However, that's just your opinion. Granted a popular opinion in England. But in other countries, this isn't always the case. I'm sure Argentinians in '86 didn't think the England-Argentina game lost entertainment value due to Maradona. And if a Luis Suarez dive wins Uruguay the world cup this year, i doubt Uruguayans will be complaining about the loss of entertainment value either. On the other hand, Spaniards seem to think its offensive or "anti-football" (as Fabregas puts it) when teams try to play like Stoke. It just shows "entertainment" is subjective.

And finally, i agree that too many games in the premier league are being decided by poor officiating. But i don't think you can really blame the divers for this. It seems to me that refs in England are just bad (epitomised by Howard Webb). In European competition, the level of officiating seems a lot better, and some would argue, there are more divers there than in England.

 

[Baleforce]

I'm kinda with Neymar on this, it shouldn't take precedent over any other form of rule breaking, the laws of the game are there and everything outside the laws are an equal offence.

Personally I admire a well executed dive. The whole point of football is to maximise any advantage you can to win.

 

[mudshark]

i keep mentioning Charlie Adam because he is probably the most high profile case at the moment(Just like i keep mentioning Ashley Young as a diver). There are plenty more tho. But let me be clear. My point is that these incidents are far more offensive than dives. But i would also add that an offense such as a shirt tug is no different to a dive. And that happens all the time by every player. Hence my point that everyone cheats multiple times per game. However, for some reason people single out divers. Hence, my opinion that there is massive hypocrisy here.

I would also say that there are way more than a handful of "assault-like" incidents per season. But even a handful is way too many. And yes I agree that there were more thugs in the 70's and 80's than there are now. Whats your point tho?

You say diving "ruins the game and costs entertainment value". If i'm totally honest i'm not sure what my personal view is on this (i'm impartial for now). However, that's just your opinion. Granted a popular opinion in England. But in other countries, this isn't always the case. I'm sure Argentinians in '86 didn't think the England-Argentina game lost entertainment value due to Maradona. And if a Luis Suarez dive wins Uruguay the world cup this year, i doubt Uruguayans will be complaining about the loss of entertainment value either. On the other hand, Spaniards seem to think its offensive or "anti-football" (as Fabregas puts it) when teams try to play like Stoke. It just shows "entertainment" is subjective.

And finally, i agree that too many games in the premier league are being decided by poor officiating. But i don't think you can really blame the divers for this. It seems to me that refs in England are just bad (epitomised by Howard Webb). In European competition, the level of officiating seems a lot better, and some would argue, there are more divers there than in England.

My point, as I thought was explicit, is that, nowadays, the sort of deliberate-assault-with-intent-to-maim incidents you started off talking about are quite rare compared to cheating and diving incidents, which are commonplace and becoming ever-increasingly so. You're trying to assert that intent-to-maim assaults aren't that rare, but I disagree. I don't disagree that going out and trying to break a fellow professional's leg is more deplorable than any individual diving incident, and although I'm not aware of any internationally agreed unit of deplorability, for me, if you were to add up all the incidences of each type and weigh them, it's the diving that would tip the scale in terms of sheer volume. You obviously don't feel that way, though, so I think we'll just have to leave it at that, while I can still resist the feeling I'm being WUMed.

 

[Baleforce]

I think shirt pulling and obstruction are more common than diving.

 

[mudshark]

I think shirt pulling and obstruction are more common than diving.

Quite possibly, but I think people get less wound-up about them because they less frequently lead to your side being cheated out of the points with a soft pen.

 

[Neymar]

while I can still resist the feeling I'm being WUMed.

haha i can see why i come off as a wum. but they are my genuine views on this matter

 

[Neymar]

Quite possibly, but I think people get less wound-up about them because they less frequently lead to your side being cheated out of the points with a soft pen.

i think you are right here; in so far as people think this.

but they couldn't be more wrong imo. look at how many penalties there should really be every corner kick for example.

 

[Baleforce]

Quite possibly, but I think people get less wound-up about them because they less frequently lead to your side being cheated out of the points with a soft pen.

Possibly, you can't know what the corner or cross would have developed into though, or whether he might have got to the ball on his near post run.

 

[clevelandspur]

i think you are right here; in so far as people think this.

but they couldn't be more wrong imo. look at how many penalties there should really be every corner kick for example.

Spot on with that comment. I really think FIFA should have all referees cut out the holding/ shirt pulling on corners. We always joke/lament how we never score on corners but hardly any club does these days. Anyone that has played knows the slightest nudge when you are off the ground trying to head the ball puts you off and these days almost every player is getting tackled or bear hugged inside the penalty area with nothing ever being called. Usually the ref just has a word with the worst offenders and then as soon as he walks away it is the same thing happening.

 

[veron23]

Ive always wanted to know this, its bothered me for a long time.
Can somebody explain to me how the second season with Ramos turned so bad?
I didn't have SKY TV for the infamous 2 point from 8 games season but the season before I thought we finally had our man. Beating Chelsea in the final and even more so playing so well against UTD in the scandalous 1-1 game, I was convinced we were a new team.

I didn't get to see any of those 8 games and was left baffled with how it turned out

What happened???

 

[Mumorn]

Other than a few good performances, most notably against the bigger teams, he wasn't the best. All went wrong after the carling cup win.

 

[Raziel]

We were complete **** after the Cup win the season before ... (it wasn't just the 8 games)

Probably some of the worse football I've seen us play for that 8 games, players played like strangers, substitutes shaking their heads as they ran on the pitch. Textbook definition of lost the dressing room.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Steff has suggested before that he had some big personal crisis (financial IIRC) going on back home at that time that distracted him. That and Poyet's meddling. I think Bentley, Woodgate and the ketchup boys were knobs too.

That's the best explanation I've heard anyway