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Jose Mourinho - SACKED

Baleforce said:
The financial spend doesn’t take into account the strength of the squad though.

By hook or by crook we had a genuine set of superstars, as good as any other player in the world at their position.

Lloris/Verts/Toby/Dembele/Eriksen/Son/Kane

That’s hundreds of millions of pounds worth of talent, Levy should be lauded for assembling it, not beaten over the head because he got a good deal.
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That's only half a team though. Jose has peak Kane, peak Son, Ndombele, Reguillon, Bale ( not what he was but still better than the majority of players in the PL) Lo Celso much more accomplished than Eriksen was at the time Poch picked him up. Dembele has not been properly replaced but Holbjerg is very good. Jose is still struggling to get a song out of those players. So perhaps it's not as easy as we like to think. As I have said many times when a manager as successful as Jose struggles than that should make fans reflect how good Poch actually was for us. But typical of the current times, facts don't seem to matter.
 
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Baleforce said:
I wasn’t reframing anything, my original point was,

“financial spend doesn’t take into account the strength of the squad”
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We can’t say, “Poch wasn’t backed because he only spent X.”

That's what you posted and it's not a fair reflection of what people are saying. There's more than just the financial aspect wrt to backing.
 
Robspur12 said:
That's only half a team though. Jose has peak Kane, peak Son, Ndombele, Reguillon, Bale ( not what he was but still better than the majority of players in the PL) Lo Celso much more accomplished than Eriksen was at the time Poch picked him up. Dembele has not been properly replaced but Holbjerg is very good. Jose is still struggling to get a song out of those players. So perhaps it's not as easy as we like to think. As I have said many times when a manager as successful as Jose struggles than that should make fans reflect how good Poch actually was for us.
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I don’t agree on timelines, I think Poch had a better Kane (pace and resilience is lower now) and that early Eriksen was elite level.

Son seems more hit and miss now to me but maybe that’s because he’s in a team that is.

Also, Verts and Toby at their peak, the best cb pairing in the game.
 
billyiddo said:
They weren't duffers though, he barely got a chance to use 2 of them through injury and the one that was available actually looked quite bright - i wonder if i could find a post from you saying that Mourinho needs more time with the players he has bought before being judged, or is 12 games a fair amount of time to make that call even if they're injured?

You're being a hipocrite - defend Mourinho because he doesn't get the all the players he wants yet say 'tough luck' to Pochettino for the same situation.

Mourinho has had more players signed under his watch than Poch, 9 in 3 windows compared to 26 in 11, at a higher price per player and a much higher net spend - yet you defend the latter and not the former, strange. Mourinho came in to this season waxing lyrical about how well he had been backed and how strong the squad was, while Pochettino said he should have his title changed back to head coach because his lack of input in transfers and was warning we needed a painful rebuild yet it's he that was backed in your mind and not Mourinho - does not compute.
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Sorry - you are being totally disingenuous. Of the 9 players bought in under Mourinho, four are loans, one a back up keeper on a free. PEH, Doherty Rondon and Bergwyn ( who was apparently in the works prior to Mourinho arriving) cost a total of about 75m. An average of less than 20m. Poch spunked so much money on substandard players including record sums on Sanchez, Sissoko, NDombele etc and significant sums on Aurier, LucasTo claim he had no influence on transfer policy is surely naive in the extreme. He was one of four in the transfer committee. One was the head of youth and one was Levy who I doubt had much influence in player selection ( yes of course he negotiated transfers but I would think only after the player in question was identified). That left Poch and Hitchens as head of recruitment. To me it simply beggars belief that Poch had no influence on transfers as he subsequently claimed. Indeed, in the barren windows it was claimed he didn't identify anyone and rejected all those put forward as " not good enough".

You and I ( Inthink) both agree we desperately needed ( and still urgently need) a DoF. Poch should have used his position to make sure one was brought in.
 
Baleforce said:
I don’t agree on timelines, I think Poch had a better Kane (pace and resilience is lower now) and that early Eriksen was elite level.

Son seems more hit and miss now to me but maybe that’s because he’s in a team that is.

Also, Verts and Toby at their peak, the best cb pairing in the game.
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I never felt they were anywhere near the best in the game albeit a very good partnership. They were part of a very effective defensive system where they were very well screened by Dembele and Wanyama in particular. When they lost those two they were exposed much more, we conceded more goals and results started going against us.. Toby has very significant weaknesses as a centre back, not great in the air and lacks pace. That is probably why he wasn't as sought after as we thought he would be. Verts was very very good. But neither are as influential or game changing as say VVD, Terry, Adams or Rio. Or even our own Ledley King.
Kane's game has developed so that he is now dictating play as well as scoring goals. Son has adjusted to the rigours of the PL. As for Eriksen. It is a stretch to say Poch picked up and elite player. He was an exciting and talented prospect which was reflected in his transfer fee and wages. Poch made him an elite player as he did with Dembele.
 
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billyiddo said:
Ok, seems a strange point to randomly interject with.

Do you think someone that says he 'should be called head coach and not manager' when asked about transfers sounds like someone eho feels they are being backed?
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No, I don’t think he did feel that.

But I feel that he was. Jose has been too.

I think Levy has backed most of his managers with as much as we can afford, our financials underline that.
 
Pirate55 said:
Sorry - you are being totally disingenuous. Of the 9 players bought in under Mourinho, four are loans, one a back up keeper on a free. PEH, Doherty Rondon and Bergwyn ( who was apparently in the works prior to Mourinho arriving) cost a total of about 75m. An average of less than 20m. Poch spunked so much money on substandard players including record sums on Sanchez, Sissoko, NDombele etc and significant sums on Aurier, LucasTo claim he had no influence on transfer policy is surely naive in the extreme. He was one of four in the transfer committee. One was the head of youth and one was Levy who I doubt had much influence in player selection ( yes of course he negotiated transfers but I would think only after the player in question was identified). That left Poch and Hitchens as head of recruitment. To me it simply beggars belief that Poch had no influence on transfers as he subsequently claimed. Indeed, in the barren windows it was claimed he didn't identify anyone and rejected all those put forward as " not good enough".

You and I ( Inthink) both agree we desperately needed ( and still urgently need) a DoF. Poch should have used his position to make sure one was brought in.
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Subsequently implies after the fact - Pochettino said what he said during...

I'm not being disingenuous, Lo Celso was signed on loan from Betis under Poch yet we're counting him as his signing despite the fact the deal was completed under Mourinho - why wouldn't we count other loan players? They are here and available to be used.

You're just further digging your own hole mate, Pochettino spunked money on X Y and Z even though we know Sissoko wasn't his signing, he wanted Wijnaldum - yet Mourinho's not being held to the same standard.
 
billyiddo said:
I struggle to see how that impacts the argument to be honest - we're not talking hypothetical scenarios we're comparing things that actually happened.

Pochettino took over a 6th place squad and spent X amount to improve it, Mourinho took over a 4th place squad and has spent Y - both squads had existing quality in it that meant we didn't need to strengthen certain areas.
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A totally erroneous comparison. Things you seem to revel in. Poch inherited a young, hugely talented, hungry and eminently coachable group of players. Mourinho inherited an aging, stale and largely disinterested players who for a variety of reasons were mainly well past their best.
 
Poch didn't improve players, yet the team he inherited finished top four four years in row.

Jose has had this team for 18 months and they still can't defend, something Jose teams are renowned for, are you really wanting to compare them on improving players?
 
billyiddo said:
Subsequently implies after the fact - Pochettino said what he said during...

I'm not being disingenuous, Lo Celso was signed on loan from Betis under Poch yet we're counting him as his signing despite the fact the deal was completed under Mourinho - why wouldn't we count other loan players? They are here and available to be used.

You're just further digging your own hole mate, Pochettino spunked money on X Y and Z even though we know Sissoko wasn't his signing, he wanted Wijnaldum - yet Mourinho's not being held to the same standard.
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No mate, you are just saying because Poch didn't get Mane and Wijnadum, who both chose Liverpool and their higher wages over us, Poch wasn't backed. Be realistic for a change. Poch was allowed to spend a LOT of money on 26 players. Most were duffers and not worth the money we paid. You don't blame Poch. I hold him largely responsible.
 
Pirate55 said:
A totally erroneous comparison. Things you seem to revel in. Poch inherited a young, hugely talented, hungry and eminently coachable group of players. Mourinho inherited an aging, stale and largely disinterested players who for a variety of reasons were mainly well past their best.
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It was a direct comparison between the level both squads had performed to the season prior to the managers appointment - nothing erroneous about it, perhaps you meant something different? Pochettino had to forge a team out of what he was given, plenty of ageing/disinterested players in that squad too don't forget
 
Pirate55 said:
No mate, you are just saying because Poch didn't get Mane and Wijnadum, who both chose Liverpool and their higher wages over us, Poch wasn't backed. Be realistic for a change. Poch was allowed to spend a LOT of money on 26 players. Most were duffers and not worth the money we paid. You don't blame Poch. I hold him largely responsible.
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I don't give a fudge to be honest mate, transfers are a tough thing to crack - inherently hit and miss by their nature, i just find it laughable that here you still are contradicting yourself at every turn despite having had it pointed out several times now. Mourinho wanted Skriniar, got Rodon, wanted a 'beast" of a CF got Vinicius - it happens, managers have to deal with it. Only for you it excuses Mourinho but not Pochettino.
 
billyiddo said:
I don't give a fudge to be honest mate, transfers are a tough thing to crack - inherently hit and miss by their nature, i just find it laughable that here you still are contradicting yourself at every turn despite having had it pointed out several times now. Mourinho wanted Skriniar, got Rodon, wanted a 'hunk of burning love" of a CF got Vinicius - it happens, managers have to deal with it. Only for you it excuses Mourinho but not Pochettino.
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The key difference is that Poch was in post for more than five years. Mourinho for less than a single full season. If you really can't see the difference, then this discussion is over
 
Baleforce said:
The financial spend doesn’t take into account the strength of the squad though.

By hook or by crook we had a genuine set of superstars, as good as any other player in the world at their position.

Lloris/Verts/Toby/Dembele/Eriksen/Son/Kane

That’s hundreds of millions of pounds worth of talent, Levy should be lauded for assembling it, not beaten over the head because he got a good deal.
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Two of those seven players were purchased by Poch. One had just come out of the youth team.
 
Pirate55 said:
Again, how long has Mourinho been here compared to Poch? How long has he had to really buy the players he wants?

He hasn't even had a full season yet ffs!! Last year and this have both been clusterfudges for any manager. Specifically, he didn't get two players in the the two key positions he requested.

I am not defending Mourinho' s tactics, team selections or management style, (all of which I have issues with) but I do believe in giving someone a fair crack of the whip before rushing to judgement. The quite phenomenal amount of pelanties and free kicks we have needlessly conceded this season, combined with players continuing to make individual mistakes , can hardly be laid at his door.
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3 transfer windows.... Pochettino was on his way to finishing 3rd in the league at this point.

Again the excuse comes.... “he didn't get two players in the the two key positions he requested”. How about having to put up with getting no players at all for two Windows in a row?
 
Baleforce said:
My point is that we were very good for a time at getting high value players dirt cheap and that skews the argument.

We can’t say, “Poch wasn’t backed because he only spent X.”
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How about when the chairman doesn’t deliver players in our price range from Southampton, (Championship) Saudi Sportswashing Machine and (Championship) Villa?
 
Finney Is Back said:
Two of those seven players were purchased by Poch. One had just come out of the youth team.
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Yep, purchased for absolute steals, both worth 3/4 times what we paid for them.

A slight stretch on Harry I feel, he made his debut three managers prior iirc. He was far beyond the youth team.
 
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