Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[DeanoAustin]

Amazing how people think backing Dele is the right thing here?

- Dele is a child that hasn't fudging figured out talent is the thing that lets you be the best guy in school, at this level is hard fudging work and the right decision making, neither of which he does.

People think Dele had a good game last night? why, because he made a few good runs, guess what, against championship level opposition that offered very little threat, he did nothing, he either needed to score the two clear chances he had, or in the case of the second one, lay off the ball for a tap in. Just once in a fudging while, know the balance of the game and make the appropriate decision.

Yes, Poch would never call out a player like this, that's exactly why Poch lost his fudging job, because his pals like Dele let him down. Jose isn't going to sit there and accept that, is it pretty or likeable = no? will it get us further than Poch = very likely.

This goes beyond the game for me. Whether you think Dele was good or bad is beside the point. This is about how out manager behaves in public.

If Jose doesn't want to pick Alli because he doesn't rate him, that's his right. If Jose wants to tear strips off him because he's not doing what he's being asked to do, that's also his right. I don't believe it's his right to kick the lad in public. Even more so when other players (Hugo, Aurier) have been excused for similar errors in the last couple of weeks.

I also don't accept Poch lost his job because he tried to be too pally with the players or wouldn't dig them out. It was a far more complex than that.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I'm one of Dele biggest fans but his greatest assets are his unpredictability and instinctive play, he struggles in a system which doesnt allow him to do his thing, maybe he's not able or prepared to play to a tight plan. He's the type of player I love to see as he does things other can't but I fear he has no place in a team with Bale in it as their work rate is too low.

 

[Baleforce]

I think that was Alli's best performance for a while, I think the approach is working.

 

[Jurgen the German]

This goes beyond the game for me. Whether you think Dele was good or bad is beside the point. This is about how out manager behaves in public.

If Jose doesn't want to pick Alli because he doesn't rate him, that's his right. If Jose wants to tear strips off him because he's not doing what he's being asked to do, that's also his right. I don't believe it's his right to kick the lad in public. Even more so when other players (Hugo, Aurier) have been excused for similar errors in the last couple of weeks.

I also don't accept Poch lost his job because he tried to be too pally with the players or wouldn't dig them out. It was a far more complex than that.

Of course there was more to it but I think he’s right about Poch having his favourites. For me he was too loyal to certain players in the team. Let’s not forget Alli was dropped from the England squad entirely so it’s multiple managers (except poch) who thought Alli wasn’t doing enough for whatever reason. I loved Poch but was too nice sometimes. The nonsense about not wanting to sub players because it may damage them, he needs to get over that if he’s going to be a successful, trophy winning manager. Not saying he needs to haul players off after 20 mins but don’t constantly leave it until 70 mins regardless of what is happening on the pitch.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Of course there was more to it but I think he’s right about Poch having his favourites. For me he was too loyal to certain players in the team. Let’s not forget Alli was dropped from the England squad entirely so it’s multiple managers (except poch) who thought Alli wasn’t doing enough for whatever reason. I loved Poch but was too nice sometimes. The nonsense about not wanting to sub players because it may damage them, he needs to get over that if he’s going to be a successful, trophy winning manager. Not saying he needs to haul players off after 20 mins but don’t constantly leave it until 70 mins regardless of what is happening on the pitch.

I can see the logic in the argument, I just don’t really go with it. Every manager has favourites or seems to have them. Poch was pretty ruthless when he came in with Kaboul/Ade etc., he got rid of Walker, regularly rotated Rose and dropped Toby.

I don’t believe we ever really had many viable alternatives to Kane, Eriksen, Son and Alli. That’s why they played. They were our most talented players and they served Poch well. Naturally he’d feel loyalty to them.

I think sometimes fans want the manager to “put a rocket” under the players and tell them how brick/lazy they are. That approach doesn’t really work anymore.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I can see the logic in the argument, I just don’t really go with it. Every manager has favourites or seems to have them. Poch was pretty ruthless when he came in with Kaboul/Ade etc., he got rid of Walker, regularly rotated Rose and dropped Toby.

I don’t believe we ever really had many viable alternatives to Kane, Eriksen, Son and Alli. That’s why they played. They were our most talented players and they served Poch well. Naturally he’d feel loyalty to them.

I think sometimes fans want the manager to “put a rocket” under the players and tell them how brick/lazy they are. That approach doesn’t really work anymore.

Re ade and Kaboul, he had to get rid of them. They were either not good enough or bad apples. Walker wanted to leave so Poch tried to move on without him. I disagreed with dropping Toby at the time, seemed to me like he did purely because Toby wouldn’t sign a new deal which is between the player and the club. Poch openly flirted with other clubs so it’s rich for him to play the loyalty card.

I agree they were the best players at the time and we had other areas of concern that we needed to address but you’re supposed to pick players on form and Poch was very, very patient with Alli, too patient for my liking. He stuck with Alli for a long term regardless of form and he would probably still be in the team every week now if Poch were the manager

 

[billyiddo]

When do you think Alli should have been dropped/who should he have been dropped for?

 

[Jurgen the German]

When do you think Alli should have been dropped/who should he have been dropped for?

At some point during the second half of the 2017/18 season or during the whole of 2018/19 when he was underperforming. Moura or Lamela were the best options we had on the bench. I’m not arguing they are good enough but you shouldn’t persist with the same player regardless of form like Poch was with Alli.

Do people agree in general that Alli hasn’t developed his own game? I’m not talking about other players leaving that haven’t been replaced which have hurt the club. I mean Alli’s overall play. Are people saying he hasn’t gone backwards and he’s the same player he was in his first two seasons?

 

[DeanoAustin]

Re ade and Kaboul, he had to get rid of them. They were either not good enough or bad apples. Walker wanted to leave so Poch tried to move on without him. I disagreed with dropping Toby at the time, seemed to me like he did purely because Toby wouldn’t sign a new deal which is between the player and the club. Poch openly flirted with other clubs so it’s rich for him to play the loyalty card.

I agree they were the best players at the time and we had other areas of concern that we needed to address but you’re supposed to pick players on form and Poch was very, very patient with Alli, too patient for my liking. He stuck with Alli for a long term regardless of form and he would probably still be in the team every week now if Poch were the manager

He still had to get rid of Ade and Kaboul. He was in a position where he backed young, unproven talent over experienced, proven players. He could have gone with the other lads. Other managers would have. That he didn't shows strength of character for me.

With Walker and Toby, he was quite harsh. Either you're with the group or you're not. If you don't, you don't play. He believed in the group dynamic, he believed in loyalty. That's how he manages. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

It's a different approach to Jose but when he had to be hard because players didn't do what he wanted and expected, he got rid. That would have been the same for any player I believe.

 

[DeanoAustin]

At some point during the second half of the 2017/18 season or during the whole of 2018/19 when he was underperforming. Moura or Lamela were the best options we had on the bench. I’m not arguing they are good enough but you shouldn’t persist with the same player regardless of form like Poch was with Alli.

Do people agree in general that Alli hasn’t developed his own game? I’m not talking about other players leaving that haven’t been replaced which have hurt the club. I mean Alli’s overall play. Are people saying he hasn’t gone backwards and he’s the same player he was in his first two seasons?

I think that's a fair argument. He did get asked to play a different role under Poch at times and that didn't help because he just wasn't able to do it effectively despite the fact I thought he would. I think someone else pointed out that having Winks and Sissoko behind him rather than Dembele and Wanyama probably didn't help either as well as Eriksen's waning influence but I'd have expected Dele to have kicked on a lot more than he has. He's got to be responsible himself at some stage or he's not as great a player as he looked when he came through initially. I'm still hopeful he will fulfil that potential but it's looking less likely that it'll be with us.

 

[billyiddo]

At some point during the second half of the 2017/18 season or during the whole of 2018/19 when he was underperforming. Moura or Lamela were the best options we had on the bench. I’m not arguing they are good enough but you shouldn’t persist with the same player regardless of form like Poch was with Alli.

Do people agree in general that Alli hasn’t developed his own game? I’m not talking about other players leaving that haven’t been replaced which have hurt the club. I mean Alli’s overall play. Are people saying he hasn’t gone backwards and he’s the same player he was in his first two seasons?

Have a read through this *sorry the Dele thread* thread during the 2018/19 season - lots of consistent praise for his performances and form - not sure i remember him being the out of form player you describe.

Moura and Lamela are wide forwards, what players would you have wanted to play the position/role Dele was mostly playing in those seasons, which was central and deeper?


Dele certainly developed his game beyond those first three seasons - that's why he went from being an attacking player with a better level of output than Edin Hazard to a more deeper box to box type, but as his development moved away from motd style match winning moments his contributions probably weren't so obvious to see for the layman.

See this post from Scara as an example

He was turned from a possession monster into a pressing monster.

Did pretty well at both but suffered from expectations from his previous role as the latter.

View attachment 9945

That's not to say i don't think he can improve his game or that there are still parts of his game that haven't improved. But his stagnation has been greatly over stated and now he just isn't getting the opportunites anyway because we have a manager who'd rather we play attaackers who can defend over ones who help us break teams down, so it's a moot point.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Have a read through this *sorry the Dele thread* thread during the 2018/19 season - lots of consistent praise for his performances and form - not sure i remember him being the out of form player you describe.

Moura and Lamela are wide forwards, what players would you have wanted to play the position/role Dele was mostly playing in those seasons, which was central and deeper?


Dele certainly developed his game beyond those first three seasons - that's why he went from being an attacking player with a better level of output than Edin Hazard to a more deeper box to box type, but as his development moved away from motd style match winning moments his contributions probably weren't so obvious to see for the layman.

See this post from Scara as an example




That's not to say i don't think he can improve his game or that there are still parts of his game that haven't improved. But his stagnation has been greatly over stated and now he just isn't getting the opportunites anyway because we have a manager who'd rather we play attaackers who can defend over ones who help us break teams down, so it's a moot point.

His overall impact on games has lessened. He filled in admirably at CM but he’s not a CM, he doesn’t dominate the midfield, he’s not an adept passer when playing that deep. He can do a job but he doesn’t excel there. He never complained about being moved around so I give him props for that.

I don’t think his decline has been exaggerated. Southgate dropped him when Poch was our manager and no one was really that surprised so he must have seen something that to make him drop Alli so it’s not solely a case of Jose picking on him. I agree he hasn’t been given a fair chance under Jose but he’s out of the team by and large because his own development has stalled. I take the points about the turmoil of the club and we haven’t replaced key players effectively and that’s down to our recruitment which was farcical at times but that hasn’t stopped Son becoming a much improved overall player than he was a few years ago. Kane has adapted his game and his passing has got better every year. What aspects of Alli’s game has he improved on? Has he improved his decision making in the final third for example? Is he a better passer? Is he a more intelligent player? Is he more creative? Kane and Son have stood out even amongst all the crap that has been going on around them for the last couple of years. That’s not to say Alli isn’t the only player who hasn’t improved, winks for example isn’t a better player than he was 1-2 years ago. But I don’t think it’s been harsh or unreasonable to say that Alli hasn’t progressed how we expected him to.

 

[billyiddo]

His impact on games lessening is directly related to the different role he was asked to play? I thought i had explained that. If you ask a final third player to operate in the middle third his impact will change as a result - him not being as good a middle third player as he was a final third player is not a reason to criticise him, not every great player can be as equally effective in several areas of the pitch.

I have little doubt if we played him in the advanced positions he'd get back to the level he was at when we he was last there regularly. Having progressive passers behind like Hojberg and Lo Celso/Ndombele will only be of a benefit.

 

[StephenH]

His impact on games lessening is directly related to the different role he was asked to play? I thought i had explained that. If you ask a final third player to operate in the middle third his impact will change as a result - him not being as good a middle third player as he was a final third player is not a reason to criticise him, not every great player can be as equally effective in several areas of the pitch.

I have little doubt if we played him in the advanced positions he'd get back to the level he was at when we he was last there regularly. Having progressive passers behind like Hojberg and Lo Celso/Ndombele will only be of a benefit.

If Poch goes to PSG Dele will be well pleased, just hope Harry and Son don't follow the money. Or should that be, follow the manager?

 

[Jurgen the German]

His impact on games lessening is directly related to the different role he was asked to play? I thought i had explained that. If you ask a fonal third player to operate in the middle third his impact will change as a result - him not being as good a middle third player as he was a final third player is not a reason to criticise him, not every great player can ber as ewually effective in several areas of the pitch

With the greatest respect, you may have explained it but there’s no requirement for me to agree with it. Was he played at CM for the whole campaign in 2018/19 or during Poch’s tenure in 2019/20?

I noticed you glossed over my questions about Alli’s development in my previous post so I’ll ask them again What aspects of Alli’s game has he improved on? Has he improved his decision making in the final third for example? Is he a better passer? Is he a more intelligent player? Is he more creative?

I’m not suggesting for one moment that Alli is the only player in our squad that has regressed, Winks hasn’t kicked on and Sanchez has fallen off a cliff just to name two. But he’s not been in the team because he hasn’t improved ENOUGH as a player. Son HAS improved even with the crap going on at the club since the move back to WHL.

 

[billyiddo]

With the greatest respect, you may have explained it but there’s no requirement for me to agree with it. Was he played at CM for the whole campaign in 2018/19 or during Poch’s tenure in 2019/20?

He had a different role yes, our central midfield was decimated by injuries to Dembele Wanyama and Dier for most of that period meaning both Eriksen and Dele had to play altered roles to what they were previously to make up the shortfall. Dele spent less time stretching the opponents back lines and linking with Son/Kane and more time disrupting the opposition in the centre of the pitch, getting on the ball deeper and progressing play to the final third rather than being the one recieving the ball in those areas. Does that count as a development of his game? I guess for you it doesn't qualify.

What if he doesn't improve beyond the level he showed in his first 3 seasons? Are we saying this player :

Is of no use to us if he hasn't improved as a player from then? - with all due respect that is cobblers


Interesting when looking for that quote i found this gem from Dec 2018

Alli has done brilliantly not to react to not one but TWO clamish acts against him this week. A year ago he probably would have jumped into the crowd at the Emirates and had a ruck.

His overall play is improving all the time too.

His overall play was improving all the time... but now you are saying he was so bad during this period he should have been dropped from the team...

Something doesn't quite add up there

 

[Jurgen the German]

He had a different role yes, our central midfield was decimated by injuries to Dembele Wanyama and Dier for most of that period meaning both Eriksen and Dele had to play altered roles to what they were previously to make up the shortfall. Dele spent less time stretching the opponents back lines and linking with Son/Kane and more time disrupting the opposition in the centre of the pitch, getting on the ball deeper and progressing play to the final third rather than being the one recieving the ball in those areas. Does that count as a development of his game? I guess for you it doesn't qualify.

What if he doesn't improve beyond the level he showed in his first 3 seasons? Are we saying this player :



Is of no use to us if he hasn't improved as a player from then?


Interesting when looking for that quote i found this gem from Dec 2018


His overall play was improving all the time... but now you are saying he was so bad during this period he should have been dropped from the team...

Something doesn't quite add up there

so your opinion is that throughout the entirety of the 2017/18, 18/19 and 19/20 he played deeper?

Ill ask again, is he a more intelligent player now? Has his decision making improved? Is he more creative? Is he a better player in the final third?

Southgate dropped him, quite a lot of people on here agree he has gone backwards or his development has stalled, Mourinho hasn’t picked him for the most part, most of the pundits agree he hasn’t kicked on. Are you saying they are all wrong? You may still scratch your head as to why he has been dropped by more than one manager but there’s clearly a reason for it.

As for that post you’ve found, it’s possible I thought one thing at that time and have changed my mind as time has passed by. IIRC, we were on a good run during that spell around 2018 and won most of the games in the Xmas period. Maybe it’s knee jerk but people in general are more likely to be positive and overlook certain things when the team is winning, that’s just human nature isn’t it?

 

[billyiddo]

so your opinion is that throughout the entirety of the 2017/18, 18/19 and 19/20 he played deeper?

Ill ask again, is he a more intelligent player now? Has his decision making improved? Is he more creative? Is he a better player in the final third?

Southgate dropped him, quite a lot of people on here agree he has gone backwards or his development has stalled, Mourinho hasn’t picked him for the most part, most of the pundits agree he hasn’t kicked on. Are you saying they are all wrong? You may still scratch your head as to why he has been dropped by more than one manager but there’s clearly a reason for it.

As for that post you’ve found, it’s possible I thought one thing at that time and have changed my mind as time has passed by. IIRC, we were on a good run during that spell around 2018 and won most of the games in the Xmas period. Maybe it’s knee jerk but people in general are more likely to be positive and overlook certain things when the team is winning, that’s just human nature isn’t it?

I've answered your questions mate, i think he developed his game in the areas that mattered in the new role he was being asked to play - i don't think he played that role to the same level he played at when he was used in the front four and i think that some pundits and some supporters can't quite grasp that as is evidenced with the questions you keep asking in this exchange regarding his improvement in the final third - has he improved in the final third? Let me see him play there for a run of games and i will tell you what i think? I think the two games he started recently show that there's still a player in there who is creative, works hard off the ball and links well with team mates.

I don't care for what Southgate does, most England fans seem to think he's wasting the talent available to him - so why should we value anything he does? That said Southgate was using Dele in CM, was he doing that by coincidence or wss it because that is where he was playing for Spurs on a more regular basis? If he felt there were better options available to him for that position then i don't think that supports your argument regarding Dele in the final third tbh

as for Mourinho the whole issue is that myself and others think Dele is being mistreated, so again it proves nothing - especially since he values attackers defensive attributes over their attacking contributions.

 

[parklane1]

Dele is a top player, but ( and i think this is what s ome fans do not understand) his talent which is huge is not suiting our play and unless he can adjust that talent ( and there is no reason he can not as he is still young) i really do not see how it will work for us, for him and for Jose.

The ball is really in his court.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Dele is a top player, but ( and i think this is what s ome fans do not understand) his talent which is huge is not suiting our play and unless he can adjust that talent ( and there is no reason he can not as he is still young) i really do not see how it will work for us, for him and for Jose.

The ball is really in his court.

That’s a fair argument. My issue isn’t with whether Jose has him in or out of the team. Jose wants to win so he’ll pick whoever he thinks gives him the best chance of winning. He’d pick Hitler and Stalin as his front two if he thought that’d work so I think Jose genuinely thinks Dele isn’t good enough for his team. That’s his right as the manager.

It’s the public digging out of Dele and the fact that he doesn’t treat anyone else the same that I object to.