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Jason Roberts claim

How so?

This can only be the case IF Jason Roberts and others are correct and that there ARE in fact pre-judgements being made on the quality of managers based on their skin colour; That applicants who are black are being pre-judged as being inferior because they have the same colour skin as Paul Ince...

Simply because he failed. We still live in a footballing world where "image" is everything. Do I think some chairman would not hire a black manager - then yes I do. The same way they would not hire a women manager. The same way they would not hire a disabled manager. Its wrong, but that doesnt mean it doesnt go on.

As the post above says, where do you draw the line. Why are there no dwarf managers, why are there no gay managers ? Why are there no Chinese or Indian managers ? Why are there no grossly overweight managers in the premiership (ok, I'll give you fat Sam).

If Ince had done well and become a top mansger it would certainly have led to more in the premiership. Some clubs and chairman have no morals. They will often do what "looks" best and not always what "is" best.
 
To dismiss racism as part of the problem re black manager representation in football is highly naïve, age/gender/demographics of owners, plus the "old boys club" world of a lot of sports ownership would tend to support the theory.

That said, making intelligent commentary on the situation would mean some homework

- How many black players at top level retired over the last 5-10 years?
- How many of them went for their coaching badges?
- Similar re white players at same level
- What is the job success rate, unemployed % of both groups

You have to find out functionally are black players trying to become managers, are they trying to get badges, are they applying in significant numbers and having a different success rate than non black managers?
 
Simply because he failed. We still live in a footballing world where "image" is everything. Do I think some chairman would not hire a black manager - then yes I do. The same way they would not hire a women manager. The same way they would not hire a disabled manager. Its wrong, but that doesnt mean it doesnt go on.

As the post above says, where do you draw the line. Why are there no dwarf managers, why are there no gay managers ? Why are there no Chinese or Indian managers ? Why are there no grossly overweight managers in the premiership (ok, I'll give you fat Sam).

If Ince had done well and become a top mansger it would certainly have led to more in the premiership. Some clubs and chairman have no morals. They will often do what "looks" best and not always what "is" best.

Fair enough - this would suggest that you think Jason roberts may have a point
 
I go to Tranmere a lot and when John Barnes became manager the fans didn't like him immediately. I witnessed some abhorrent racist things being said about him in the pubs near the ground. When anyone was confronted about the racist things they were saying, they immediately went on the defensive saying they didn't like him because of his links to Liverpool. But they weren't singing songs about LFC, or bemoaning the fact they had an ex-player of theirs on the touchline. It was all bluntly about his race.

Now I'm not wanting to denigrate Tranmere purely because of a select few idiots, but there was a nasty, underlying feeling to his time at the club. Barnes has since made comments about his time there and that he would have been given longer had he been white, but the Tranmere fans always have the excuse that he wasn't very good, and have the stats to back this up, citing results the reason for dismissal.

Like Danners says, until clubs make it transparent who applies for and subsequently gets interviewed for jobs then we will never be able to say for definite whether or not Roberts has a valid point.

Interesting post. I had forgotten about Barnes' stint as Tranmere boss but I didn't know about the racist fan recation you mentioned.
 
Top black players to retire would include Wrighty, Yorke, Andy Cole, Shaka Hislop all 4 of whom I've seen on punditry but don't think they've done badges as far as I'm aware anyway. I'm sure all would be decent managers as would most retired players as they've been there, done that and learnt from some good managers.

Chris Powell was below par at Charlton and is starting out at Huddersfield now so we'll have to see how it goes. Barnes, despite being a fantastic player, failed at Tranmere, Celtic and Saudi Sportswashing Machine similarly Ince despite doing ok at MK Dons.

Did they fail due to being black? I don't think so personally.
 
Top black players to retire would include Wrighty, Yorke, Andy Cole, Shaka Hislop all 4 of whom I've seen on punditry but don't think they've done badges as far as I'm aware anyway. I'm sure all would be decent managers as would most retired players as they've been there, done that and learnt from some good managers.

Chris Powell was below par at Charlton and is starting out at Huddersfield now so we'll have to see how it goes. Barnes, despite being a fantastic player, failed at Tranmere, Celtic and Saudi Sportswashing Machine similarly Ince despite doing ok at MK Dons.

Did they fail due to being black? I don't think so personally.

Its a results business football and they didnt get the results so got the boot, it happens every week in football around the world
 
I think the point is whether they (i.e. prospective black managers) are being given fair chances to get the managerial jobs on offer. People fail at managerial jobs all the time - and get re-hired.
Like has been said, until we get to see data on how many interviews etc are given we can not say for sure.

However, the fact that some will say that Ince failing in a job 'has put back black managers years' says that perhaps Jason Roberts might have a point and be onto something.

After all, would anybody who thought Sherwood was a bellend when he managed us say that Sherwood's stint 'put back English/White/Anglo-saxon managers years'?
 
Roberts must have some knowledge he's basing this on, although if he was 100% sure then surely he would name names.
 
Roberts must have some knowledge he's basing this on, although if he was 100% sure then surely he would name names.

I agree, but it's easier said than done; look what happened when somebody went to papers about Hodgson supposedly making an inappropriate monkey-space joke. If they'd been named they'd have been villified (from the reaction on here alone).

The Ferdinand's got a lot of flack in some quarters - even though they were the victims!

Rio in his book mentioned an openly racist player but didn't feelk he could name him.

Sadly, it often seems for the whistleblower, the backlash is not worth the hassle unless your evidence is absolutely legal-proof
 
I agree, but it's easier said than done; look what happened when somebody went to papers about Hodgson supposedly making an inappropriate monkey-space joke. If they'd been named they'd have been villified (from the reaction on here alone).

The Ferdinand's got a lot of flack in some quarters - even though they were the victims!

Rio in his book mentioned an openly racist player but didn't feelk he could name him.

Sadly, it often seems for the whistleblower, the backlash is not worth the hassle unless your evidence is absolutely legal-proof


Pretty blatant that who that likely is.
 
I think Rodgers is the youngest premier league manager atm at 41 (?) - from his generation are there many former black players who have gone in to coaching? As the next generation comes through the balance will probably level out.

Agreed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29333826

  • The PFA says about 18% of players on their coaching courses are black or from other ethnic minorities
  • There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England and 14 of those are black coaches
  • Around 25% of players in the professional game are non-white
  • There were five black managers in English professional football last season but, of Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Paul Ince, Chris Kiwomya and Edgar Davids, only Powell now has a job
 
Chris Hughton is a decent manager. Funnily enough I don't regard him as a good 'black' manager just a good 'manager'
 
I have a theory, and its based on the premise that i don’t believe the majority of English chairmen are racists.

However, i think there are probably subconscious levels of racism occurring. Ill try to explain what i mean.

A lot of black people and white people grow up separately from each other. And i would imagine this is especially true for black footballers who are probably predominantly from black working class communities. Therefore they grow up with other black children, and pick up their own unique behaviours and cultural subtleties. And these traits stay with them into adulthood.

Most chairmen are white. And therefore have their own particular behavioural traits, as a result of having grown up in a different environment to black players for example.

The problem for black players looking to get employed by these white chairmen is that, i think on a subconscious level, these chairmen interpret some of the characteristics of ex-black players as unsuitable for management.

Ie. let’s compare two similar players in rio ferdinnd and john terry. I think a lot of chairmen will interpret RF’s voice, attitude and personality as unsuitable for someone in a management position. Simply because it is something that they aren’t used to. And something that they haven’t seen in management positions in general. Whilst JT on the other hand would be considered the more prototypical leadership-material. Rightly or wrongly, i think many chairmen would consider JT to be well spoken, tactically-aware, and his general demeanour would be a lot more comparable to what they are used to from people in management roles.

I think similar comparisons can be made between ian wright/bergkamp, defoe/bent/keane, andy cole/ole gunnar s, Ashley cole/gary Neville, heskey/owen/shearer etc

When rio ferdiand or heskey do their DJ celebrations, or balotelli goes on one of his antics, andy cole produces a rap, frimpong goes around shouting dench etc, i think all of these kind of behavioural traits are unfairly viewed negatively by many chairmen when considering these guys for management positions (subconsciously). <personally, i think these are just behavioural traits from having grown up in black working class communities, and do/mean no harm. If anything, it shows charisma imo>

On the other hand, the negative behaviour and conduct of players like Tony Adams (drugs/alcohol), John Terry, Roy Keane etc are somewhat dismissed because i think white chairmen are more accustomed to these particular traits, and subconsciously they can empathise with these characters.

As the world gets smaller, and cultural/racial barriers are removed (outside of football), I think we will start to see a lot more black managers in football.
 
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