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Independence...

For once mate i agree with you ;)

We keep seeing this stuff from Bankers, and other talking heads from certain other (w)bankers around the world.

Where were these feckers when Britain was on the brink of collapse ?....feckin nowhere mate.

Now they're the same people...but with a different mask on. Two faced lying *******s.

Reply to Barry and Scara tomorrow, sorry lads it's late and just finished a back shift, good points though.

O/T...get that big Addy tae feck, he's a feckin chancer !

I think the Scots may just be thinking, lets cut out all the bullsh*t from south of the border. We have natural resources, we have fishing, we have renewable power, we have single malt;) .We only have 5M people. Hello Norway...Hello Scotland.
 
Anybody who supports the concept of referendum should take a look at the Peter Cook film The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer, or live in Switzerland.
 
Anybody who supports the concept of referendum should take a look at the Peter Cook film The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer, or live in Switzerland.

Switzerland is one of the few European countries I have never been to, but it looks like a liberally progressive country where prostitution and euthanasia are legal with a low tax rate and a country where it's people get to decide on important issues. Combine that with what looks like stunning scenery sounds like a lovely country to me.
 
Love the idea of more referendums, something I have always advocated. Referendum for war would be a must, plus with modern technology, we could hold referendums on many a subject, no need for polling sations, as long as a secure online voting system is in place, we now have the potential to build a true Democratic society where decisions are taken by the people, not those in government that have been influenced by lobbiests (and that's the nicest way of putting it)

Absolutely the Iraq war should have gone to a vote for the people, why not present us with the facts. They like to think the public is stupid, we are not we just may not have the same opinion as the Politicians. At the next election one side will lose and they will call the other sides supporters stupid, they are not they just have different views.
 
Why anyone would want the great british public making important decisions?

We ultimately pay the price for decisions made, so let them be our decisions. Give us responsibility and have faith in our ability to either make the right decision or live with the consequences.
 
We ultimately pay the price for decisions made, so let them be our decisions. Give us responsibility and have faith in our ability to either make the right decision or live with the consequences.

Plus the political system is corrupt, it is run by interest groups and money influences decisions that should only be influenced by what's best for the people.
 
We ultimately pay the price for decisions made, so let them be our decisions. Give us responsibility and have faith in our ability to either make the right decision or live with the consequences.


no chance do i want the Average Joe on the street making decisions that effect my life, leave the decision making to those that we elect to do so. the idea of huge swathes of ill informed/uninformed people given the right to vote on such things is absurd
 
We elect politicians to make laws and decisions on our behalf, the use of referenda would only fuel the rise of populism. Just because something is popular does not mean it is a good idea.
 
no chance do i want the Average Joe on the street making decisions that effect my life, leave the decision making to those that we elect to do so. the idea of huge swathes of ill informed/uninformed people given the right to vote on such things is absurd
This. There's a lot of stupid people out there - I really, really don't want them having such a direct influence on politics.

Maybe referenda with IQ/education restrictions would work better - you can have a say if you're a graduate (in a proper subject, not sports science) or have an IQ over 120 or so.
 
no chance do i want the Average Joe on the street making decisions that effect my life, leave the decision making to those that we elect to do so. the idea of huge swathes of ill informed/uninformed people given the right to vote on such things is absurd

If I'll informed uninformed is the problem, then that's about informing people better. The collective intelligence of the public surely outways the interest driven agenda of politicians?
 
We elect politicians to make laws and decisions on our behalf, the use of referenda would only fuel the rise of populism. Just because something is popular does not mean it is a good idea.

Indeed. Some of the Founding Fathers views on Direct Democracy were scathing, notably the danger of tyranny of the majority. The referendum rather undermines our tradition of representative democracy as part of the liberal democratic tradition.

In this particular case, the asymmetry means that people's votes are not treated equally. In a society split 50-50, with day-to-day fluctuations, which may not be far off here, the Yes vote has the advantage. Yes means independence forever. No means independence until the next vote. Eventually Yes wins. This differs from general elections where a result in one election can be offset by a vote in the next one. A 50% plus one vote in an irreversible decision is not democratic in the sense that all voters are treated the same.
 
We ultimately pay the price for decisions made, so let them be our decisions. Give us responsibility and have faith in our ability to either make the right decision or live with the consequences.

I suspect that history will look back on the result of the referendum as a sign of the times.

Remember that after the great depression there was rebellion against authority which resulted in all developed countries and in significant political shifts in opinion.

We've just ended the so called "Great Recession" and are now seeing the same in the rise of UKIP, increased separatism in Scotland etc.

The question is how will Scotland have voted in the summer of 2008? Somewhere in between the result then and the result on Thursday is how they really feel.


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The beauty of politics is that you get one set of liars telling a bunch of lies which sound fairly plausible and then the other set of liars refute every one of their statements and tell you a whole new load of plausible lies, so the first set of liars tell more lies and refute everything the other liars said. In the end you aren't sure if anyone at all is telling the truth. And the real kicker is that whichever liar gets into power, they then go back on all of their previous pledges and do whatever the hell they want, all whilst lying to your face and telling you it is not their fault and twisting stats to suit their needs. F'rinstance:



The world-renowned Institute Fiscal Studies last week revealed how the Scottish Government has actually been cutting health services in recent years while there have been funding increases in England.
Now, a document released to the *ahem* Mail shows how Scotland's NHS chiefs discussed 'significant challenges' and further cutbacks at a meeting on August 6.

The SNP are 'perpetrating a lie' about protecting the NHS with independence because Holyrood already has the power to keep the health service in public hands, former prime minister Gordon Brown has said.

Mr Brown said the nationalists should make way for a Labour government in Scotland if they continue to insist they are 'powerless' to protect the NHS without a Yes vote in the independence referendum.
The SNP has argued that the health service north of the border is at risk due to health policies at Westminster, despite the area being devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
Speaking at a campaign event in Clydebank, West Dunbartonshire, Mr Brown said: 'The NHS lie of the Scottish National Party has been exposed. The Scottish Parliament can keep the NHS in public hands with its existing powers.

'If the SNP continue to say they are powerless to protect the NHS in Scotland, let them make way for a Labour government in Scotland and we will protect the NHS.'
Mr Brown said the Labour Party would never allow the health service to be privatised in Scotland.

'It is the SNP who are perpetrating a lie about what the NHS can and cannot do in Scotland,' he said.
'Over these next few hours, you must remind the people in Scotland the NHS has the powers and the Scottish Parliament has the powers to fund the health service, to protect the health service, to stop any privatisation, and to keep the health service in public hands.'

It estimates a reduction in day-to-day spending of £210million in 2015-16, rising to £224million in 2016-17, warning that annual savings will need to increase from 2 per cent to 3.5 per cent.
'Significant revenue pressures will be realised in 2015-16 and 2016-17, primarily due to the combined effect of a reducing increase in baseline funding, the project impact of the pension revaluation [contribution increases] and loss of national insurance rebate and the cost of funding of the drugs budget – largely due to changes to access to rare and ultra rare drugs, availability of new treatments or extending use to new indications,' it states.

'The total savings required will be £400million-to-£450million in addition to savings required in 2014-15.'
It adds: 'Limited time is available to plan for 2015-16 and 2016-17 and immediate action is required to collectively assess the options that will ensure that NHS Scotland can operate within its overall allocation and that we can continue to provide quality, safe and effective care to our constituent populations.'
Last night, Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont said: 'These papers show that the SNP have a secret agenda to cut health spending after the referendum.

'Alex Salmond was elected on a manifesto to protect health spending and now he is planning cuts but has decided not to tell anyone until after Thursday's vote.'
 
If I'll informed uninformed is the problem, then that's about informing people better. The collective intelligence of the public surely outways the interest driven agenda of politicians?

good GHod no, the "collective intelligence" of the British public is a misnomer
 
If I'll informed uninformed is the problem, then that's about informing people better. The collective intelligence of the public surely outways the interest driven agenda of politicians?

People have neither the time nor the inclination to become educated enough on topics to make informed decisions. The whole point of politics is that it allows elected officals the time to form and debate opinions. You then elect politicians based on those opinions and their subsequent actions.
 
So much propaganda. This shouldn't be about the economy or whether Scottish people be able to watch motd on Saturday night.
Its whether Scottish people want to be ruled by London or do you want to ruled by themselves.

This is what I mean

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

How the media shafted the people of Scotland

Perhaps the most arresting fact about the Scottish referendum is this: that there is no newspaper – local, regional or national, English or Scottish – that supports independence except the Sunday Herald. The Scots who will vote yes have been almost without representation in the media.

There is nothing unusual about this. Change in any direction, except further over the brink of market fundamentalism and planetary destruction, requires the defiance of almost the entire battery of salaried opinion. What distinguishes the independence campaign is that it has continued to prosper despite this assault.

In the coverage of the referendum we see most of the pathologies of the corporate media. Here, for instance, you will find the unfounded generalisations with which less enlightened souls are characterised. In the Spectator, Simon Heffer maintains that: “addicted to welfare ... Scots embraced the something for nothing society”, objecting to the poll tax “because many of them felt that paying taxes ought to be the responsibility of someone else”.

Here is the condescension with which the dominant classes have always treated those they regard as inferior: their serfs, the poor, the Irish, Africans, anyone with whom they disagree. “What spoilt, selfish, childlike fools those Scots are ... They simply don’t have a clue how lucky they are,” sneered Melanie Reid in the Times. Here is the chronic inability to distinguish between a cause and a person: the referendum is widely portrayed as a vote about Alex Salmond, who is then monstered beyond recognition (a Telegraph editorial compared him to Robert Mugabe).

The problem with the media is exemplified by Dominic Lawson’s column for the Daily Mail last week. He began with Scotland, comparing the “threat” of independence with that presented by Hitler (the article was helpfully illustrated with a picture of the Führer – unaccompanied, in this case, by the Mail’s former proprietor). Then he turned to the momentous issue of how he almost wrote something inaccurate about David Attenborough, which was narrowly averted because “as it happens, last weekend we had staying with us another of the BBC’s great figures, its world affairs editor John Simpson”, who happily corrected Lawson’s mistake. This was just as well because “the next day I went to the Royal Albert Hall as one of a small number of guests invited by the Proms director for that night’s performance. And who should I see as soon as I entered the little room set aside for our group’s pre-concert drinks? Sir David Attenborough.”

Those who are supposed to hold power to account live in a rarefied, self-referential world of power, circulating among people as exalted as themselves, the “small number of guests” who receive the most charming invitations. That a senior journalist at the BBC should be the house guest of a columnist for the Daily Mail surprises me not one iota.

In June the BBC’s economics editor, Robert Peston, complained that BBC news “is completely obsessed by the agenda set by newspapers … If we think the Mail and Telegraph will lead with this, we should. It’s part of the culture.” This might help to explain why the BBC has attracted so many complaints of bias in favour of the no campaign.

Living within their tiny circle of light, most senior journalists seem unable to comprehend a desire for change. If they notice it at all, they perceive it as a mortal threat, comparable perhaps to Hitler. They know as little of the lives of the 64 million inhabiting the outer darkness as they do of the Andaman islanders. Yet, lecturing the poor from under the wisteria, they claim to speak for the nation.

As John Harris reports in the Guardian, both north and south of the border “politics as usual suddenly seems so lost as to look completely absurd”. But to those within the circle, politics still begins and ends in Westminster. The opinions of no one beyond the gilded thousand with whom they associate is worthy of notice. Throughout the years I’ve spent working with protest movements and trying to bring neglected issues to light, one consistent theme has emerged: with a few notable exceptions, journalists are always among the last to twig that things have changed. It’s no wonder that the Scottish opinion polls took them by surprise.

One of the roles of the Guardian, which has no proprietor, is to represent the unrepresented – and it often does so to great effect. On Scottish independence I believe we have fallen short. Our leader on Saturday used the frames constructed by the rest of the press, inflating a couple of incidents into a “habit” by yes campaigners of “attacking the messenger and ignoring the message”, judging the long-term future of the nation by current SNP policy, confusing self-determination with nationalism.

If Westminster is locked into a paralysing neoliberal consensus it is partly because the corporate media, owned and staffed by its beneficiaries, demands it. Any party that challenges this worldview is ruthlessly disciplined. Any party that more noisily promotes corporate power is lauded and championed. Ukip, though it claims to be kicking against the establishment, owes much of its success to the corporate press.

For a moment, Rupert Murdoch appeared ready to offer one of his Faustian bargains to the Scottish National party: my papers for your soul. That offer now seems to have been withdrawn, as he has decided that Salmond’s SNP is “not talking about independence, but more welfarism, expensive greenery, etc and passing sovereignty to Brussels” and that it “must change course to prosper if he wins”. It’s not an observation, it’s a warning: if you win independence and pursue this agenda, my newspapers will destroy you.

Despite the rise of social media, the established media continues to define the scope of representative politics in Britain, to shape political demands and to punish and erase those who resist. It is one chamber of the corrupt heart of Britain, pumping fear, misinformation and hatred around the body politic.

That so many Scots, lambasted from all quarters as fools, frauds and ingrates, have refused to be bullied is itself a political triumph. If they vote for independence, they will do so in defiance not only of the Westminster consensus but also of its enforcers: the detached, complacent people who claim to speak on their behalf.
 
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