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Independence...

Was in Edinburgh for the rugby at the weekend, a fine city with an over proliferation of bagpipes that spoil it somewhat. Anyway, really don't think even the sweaties are quite stupid enough to follow Alex Salmond lemming like over the abyss of independence. It is well known that they do far better out of the Union that we do and as has been mentioned earlier, an independent Scotland would be great for southern Tories like me, probably wiping Labour off the map politically.
 
Superted said:
Surely Scotland could lay claim on parts of British services transferring across to Scotland. Scottish taxes helped develop those services, if they wanted to withdraw from the UK they should be able to take their fair share out with them.
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I imagine infrastructure would stand, we wouldn't go ripping up buildings or roads, but the staff would move to Scottish health and police forces independent of the UK.

The armed forces would be an interesting one. Obviously all our ships, planes and vehicles would be retained by the UK, personell may be different. What about Scots who would wish to join a Scottish army? Would they even have an Army?
 
Superted said:
Surely Scotland could lay claim on parts of British services transferring across to Scotland. Scottish taxes helped develop those services, if they wanted to withdraw from the UK they should be able to take their fair share out with them.
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The simple answer there is no as all the employees are employed by the UK government.

As for taxes don't start me off, thanks to the Barnett formula £ 8,623 is spent per person on Scotland's public services, whereas only £ 7,121 is spent per person in England.
 
There is absolutely no reason why Scotland cannot be successful.

I worry it might end up divided like Ireland but then I also think the rest of us will be better off too.
 
johnola said:
There is absolutely no reason why Scotland cannot be successful.

I worry it might end up divided like Ireland but then I also think the rest of us will be better off too.
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I have no doubt Scotland would become successful in the long term, and short term would have oil revenues to prop them up.

However, if they want independence then it's all in. Monetary union is not independence, just ask Greece and Spain how independent they feel having Germany force austerity on them.

The currency debate is moot anyway, they'll have to look to join the EU and will need to take the Euro to do it. Spain would veto any attempt by Scotland to join the EU however, as it would set a precedent for Catalonian independence. The comparison of Scotland and Catalonia is a strong one, the Spanish won't want to give Catalan Nationalists hope.

So put simply there would be no EU, no Pound and if the Scots refuse to take their share of the debt I imagine it would create a hostile environment when negotiating tariffs and border control with the UK.

The more I think about it, the more dangerous a Yes vote appears to be for Scotland.
 
johnola said:
There is absolutely no reason why Scotland cannot be successful.
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spm_a2585.jpg
 
Richie said:
I have no doubt Scotland would become successful in the long term, and short term would have oil revenues to prop them up.

However, if they want independence then it's all in. Monetary union is not independence, just ask Greece and Spain how independent they feel having Germany force austerity on them.

The currency debate is moot anyway, they'll have to look to join the EU and will need to take the Euro to do it. Spain would veto any attempt by Scotland to join the EU however, as it would set a precedent for Catalonian independence. The comparison of Scotland and Catalonia is a strong one, the Spanish won't want to give Catalan Nationalists hope.

So put simply there would be no EU, no Pound and if the Scots refuse to take their share of the debt I imagine it would create a hostile environment when negotiating tariffs and border control with the UK.

The more I think about it, the more dangerous a Yes vote appears to be for Scotland.
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Yes the currency is a weird one but the Nationalists want to keep the pound and more effort should be made to provide options to accommodate this. It is their currency too do not forget that.

EU membership is a bit of a weird one as us English are perfectly capable of voting the entire UK out in 2017. So long term a Scotland seeking EU membership might be better electing for Independence.
 
johnola said:
Yes the currency is a weird one but the Nationalists want to keep the pound and more effort should be made to provide options to accommodate this. It is their currency too do not forget that.

EU membership is a bit of a weird one as us English are perfectly capable of voting the entire UK out in 2017. So long term a Scotland seeking EU membership might be better electing for Independence.
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You can't have 'a little' currency union. Either they have a say in interest rates, money printing etc... or they don't. It's very cut and dry.

The scots can use the pound, but that is different from a currency union. An example would be how Panama uses the dollar. The people of Panama have to say in what the Fed does, and the Fed doesn't base any of it's decisions on how it would affect Panama. If Scotland wants the pound that is the agreement they have to take.

Again, look at how currency union without political union has worked in Europe. German taxpayers bailing out Greek banks, German government forcing austerity on Spain. This is the inevitable consequence of currency union, eventually one country will fall in to recession and the other will foot the bill.

As for EU membership, the UK is irrelevant. Spain will not (in our lifetime) allow an independent Scotland to join the EU. Catalans would use it as a stick to beat the government with forever.
 
Another issue would be defense.

From last year.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...of-ignoring-shipyard-for-five-years-1-2723904

“A Scottish navy wouldn’t be able to support that.

“Funnily enough, the SNP has not come forward to speak to us. They’ve never asked to speak to us yet. They’ve not taken on board our views.

“The only person we spoke to, and that was about five years ago, was Angus Robertson, and he made a fool of himself.

“We asked him how big a Scottish navy would be, and he said, ‘About the size of Norway’. I asked how big that was and how many ships there would be, and he said, ‘I’m not actually sure but they’ve got a good website’.”
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:ross:
 
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Speaking from the outside with not a whole lot of knowledge on this. It seems that they want to keep all the plus points of being in the United Kingdom whilst being independent. I agree with Mr Osborn that you cannot have your cake and eat it. If the scottish are really this intent on having independence then They have to take all the ramifications that go with it.

No Pound
No certainty of joining the Eurozone
An inforced border crossing
massivly reduced Defence force

I just dont understand why they want this ( i need to read some more ) they already have their own parliament. So does it come down to purely that some laws are forced on them? they do get a vote. In fact would labour not be severely crippled by scotland leaving the union? a lot of their seats are won north of the border.
 
Richie said:
You can't have 'a little' currency union. Either they have a say in interest rates, money printing etc... or they don't. It's very cut and dry.

The scots can use the pound, but that is different from a currency union. An example would be how Panama uses the dollar. The people of Panama have to say in what the Fed does, and the Fed doesn't base any of it's decisions on how it would affect Panama. If Scotland wants the pound that is the agreement they have to take.

Again, look at how currency union without political union has worked in Europe. German taxpayers bailing out Greek banks, German government forcing austerity on Spain. This is the inevitable consequence of currency union, eventually one country will fall in to recession and the other will foot the bill.

As for EU membership, the UK is irrelevant. Spain will not (in our lifetime) allow an independent Scotland to join the EU. Catalans would use it as a stick to beat the government with forever.
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You are presenting a negotiating position, realpolitik will trump all the above.
 
I'm native English.
I support Scottish Independence and would sooner encourage them down that route and then stitch the chippy ****ers up after September.
 
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