I liked Erik Lamela before it was cool

[Maltese Falcon]

At the time I posted his dribbling stats though, I believe he was best or second best in the team, and stood up pretty well across the league as a whole. He's as far from the dud people are trying to make out as he is from the finished product.

This is exactly the type of stat I was talking about. A player who dribbles past one player, and then another, only to drive himself into a blind alley and lose the ball to the next player will show two successful dribbles and one failed. If he repeats it regularly, his dribbling stats will be top notch but he is as useful to the team as a turd. Another "lies, damned lies and statistics" situation. Lamela stands up across the league in terms of dribbling ability? oh sure... I guess that is borne from the amount of goals that were a direct result of a successful dribble from him....

In any case, I guess the best option is to retain our opinions; you will never, ever, admit to being wrong on a player and I doubt you can say anything that will change my opinion of Lamela - unless he resurrects through some magical renaissance in the next few games...

 

[Jurgen the German]

I don't see it like that.

Excluding penalties from the number of goals scored is a pretty standard thing to do. It's been done in relation to Soldado on here quite regularly. If you google top scorers excluding penalties, or goals excluding penalties etc you get quite a few results. It makes sense as penalties really are outliers in that very few players get to take them and they are exceptionally good chances that it's possible to control for. No one is saying that it's not good to score penalties, but it's certainly a viewpoint worth exploring.

Excluding assists from corners and assists against the bottom 3 teams on the other hand is not a standard thing to do. It seems like a post-hoc exclusion list primarily made up to exclude as many as Lamela's assists as possible. I can't remember it for any player in the past.

So you have the people on one side of the debate doing what is quite common and done before with reason on this forum. On the other side of the debate you have what to me seems like cherry picking.

That seems a bit unfair to me tbh, not a dig at you personally, but if conveniently makes Lamela look better by not deeply analysing his stats.

 

[jurgen lineker]

Good second half. Assist, combined well and unlucky not to score.

With a season now under his belt, next season will be the time to judge him.

 

[Jurgen the German]

You think Townsend is a better passer of the ball and creates more chances than Lamela?

I don't think there is much in it. Lamela loses the ball too often to be described as creative and Townsend shoots too much. I'm not trying to make a case for either. mumorn for example constantly brings up Arsenal at home as proof that Lamela is a worth a place in the side, well I'll raise you Chelsea at home when he didn't play. I don't think either game really had anything much to do with either player.

 

[Mr_B]

Good second half. Assist, combined well and unlucky not to score.

With a season now under his belt, next season will be the time to judge him.

weren't people saying exactly the same thing a year ago, I see little improvement

 

[billyiddo]

I don't think there is much in it. Lamela loses the ball too often to be described as creative and Townsend shoots too much. I'm not trying to make a case for either. mumorn for example constantly brings up Arsenal at home as proof that Lamela is a worth a place in the side, well I'll raise you Chelsea at home when he didn't play. I don't think either game really had anything much to do with either player.

Why does losing the ball counter whether you are creative or not? I don't understand that one bit tbh mate would be interesting to here your thinking on that. He definitley gives the ball away too much, i think both players are poor in that regard.

Im risking the ire of those who don't put much stock in stats here but i feel they illustrate my opinion of how much ahead of Townsend Lamela is in terms of creativity :

(I include Eriksen as a benchmark to compare both too)

Spoiler

I think this backs my opinion up that Lamela is clearly the more creative of the two and is in fact closer to Eriksen in this area than Townsend is to him. I don't agree with your sentiment that they are both as bad as each other, i think Townsend is considerably worse (again backed up by the above) i think he is less suited to our style of play as he doesn't pitch in with an acceptable level of off the ball/defensive contribution and we should be looking to move him on before ever doing so with Lamela. If Lamela doesn't improve beyond where he is now then i think we'll need to move him on also -

if someone comes in for him this summer and we have identified a target to replace him (along with Pritchard coming in for Townsend) then id be open to moving him on as it's not clear which way he will go next season - my gripe is with those suggesting he's worse than Townsend when everything i have seen on the pitch and the numbers across the board do not support that

 

[Raziel]

Why does losing the ball counter whether you are creative or not? I don't understand that one bit tbh mate would be interesting to here your thinking on that. He definitley gives the ball away too much, i think both players are poor in that regard.

Im risking the ire of those who don't put much stock in stats here but i feel they illustrate my opinion of how much ahead of Townsend Lamela is in terms of creativity :

(I include Eriksen as a benchmark to compare both too)

Spoiler

To me that just shows how far behind Eriksen both of them are ... sad ..

 

[braineclipse]

That seems a bit unfair to me tbh, not a dig at you personally, but if conveniently makes Lamela look better by not deeply analysing his stats.

Only if you accept excluding assists from corners and against bottom 3 teams as a valid and informative deep analysis of the stats...

I've not seen that particular analysis in the past, I've not seen anyone argue successfully that it is particularly informative in general or in this particular instance.

 

[King of Norway]

He had a shocking first half today. One of the worst performances I can recall seeing from a Spurs player. Gave away possession constantly. I don't think I exaggerate when I say that you could count on one hand the number of times he managed to retain possession.

The second half was okay, and I am glad he got the assist at the end. Hopefully that will help him feel better about his performance.

I will give him another season, but then we need to see significant improvement. If not, it is time to move him on. There cannot be any more excuses for him then. I just don't see what he is actually good at. He is not particularly quick, he rarely goes past his man, his understanding of the game seems poor as his decision-making is shocking. I remember at Anfield he had a great assist for Kane, but then later in the game he was in a great position, could have played an easy pass to Mason, but instead he tried something that was meant to be clever and wasted the opportunity. Then you start thinking that the pass for Kane was a fluke. He seems to overcomplicate things a lot of the time, running into trouble or picking the wrong pass and at times he seems to have no idea what he wants to do. He also doesn't score goals, or often get in positions where he can score (today was an exception). He does work quite hard, but that is a minimum for me when very little else comes off.

I hope I am wrong, cause I would love to see him succeed, but at the moment it is looking unlikely. I also said that Kane would never amount to anything, though

As for this Townsend/Lamela discussion, it is like choosing between the plague and cholera. They have both had very poor seasons, surely no one can disagree with that? They have both their odd moments, but over the course of the season they have both performed at a level that is not satisfactory for a Tottenham-player. Aaron Lennon would have been a much better option, so it is a shame that he has ended up at Everton for whichever reason.

I would have liked to see us at least try to play without either Lamela and Townsend. I know we did a couple of weeks ago, but that was with Eriksen on the right, which is a waste. I think Dembele could do a good job on the right, at least in away games. He has put in a couple of decent performances on the right in the past. It can't get much worse at least.

 

[Raziel]

He had a shocking first half today. One of the worst performances I can recall seeing from a Spurs player. Gave away possession constantly. I don't think I exaggerate when I say that you could count on one hand the number of times he managed to retain possession.

The second half was okay, and I am glad he got the assist at the end. Hopefully that will help him feel better about his performance.

I will give him another season, but then we need to see significant improvement. If not, it is time to move him on. There cannot be any more excuses for him then. I just don't see what he is actually good at. He is not particularly quick, he rarely goes past his man, his understanding of the game seems poor as his decision-making is shocking. I remember at Anfield he had a great assist for Kane, but then later in the game he was in a great position, could have played an easy pass to Mason, but instead he tried something that was meant to be clever and wasted the opportunity. Then you start thinking that the pass for Kane was a fluke. He seems to overcomplicate things a lot of the time, running into trouble or picking the wrong pass and at times he seems to have no idea what he wants to do. He also doesn't score goals, or often get in positions where he can score (today was an exception). He does work quite hard, but that is a minimum for me when very little else comes off.

I hope I am wrong, cause I would love to see him succeed, but at the moment it is looking unlikely. I also said that Kane would never amount to anything, though

As for this Townsend/Lamela discussion, it is like choosing between the plague and cholera. They have both had very poor seasons, surely no one can disagree with that? They have both their odd moments, but over the course of the season they have both performed at a level that is not satisfactory for a Tottenham-player. Aaron Lennon would have been a much better option, so it is a shame that he has ended up at Everton for whichever reason.

I would have liked to see us at least try to play without either Lamela and Townsend. I know we did a couple of weeks ago, but that was with Eriksen on the right, which is a waste. I think Dembele could do a good job on the right, at least in away games. He has put in a couple of decent performances on the right in the past. It can't get much worse at least.

I miss posts like this from you mate .. all on point, especially the last bit ..

 

[harr1984]

Lamela is an enigma. But I would still back him as one of the few players capable of making something happen and we don't have enough of those type of players at the moment who can create something out nothing to turn our nose up at him.

He had an awful first half and does need to work on his game over the summer but he gets one more season to prove himself for me....

 

[Jurgen the German]

Why does losing the ball counter whether you are creative or not? I don't understand that one bit tbh mate would be interesting to here your thinking on that. He definitley gives the ball away too much, i think both players are poor in that regard.

Im risking the ire of those who don't put much stock in stats here but i feel they illustrate my opinion of how much ahead of Townsend Lamela is in terms of creativity :

(I include Eriksen as a benchmark to compare both too)

Spoiler

I think this backs my opinion up that Lamela is clearly the more creative of the two and is in fact closer to Eriksen in this area than Townsend is to him. I don't agree with your sentiment that they are both as bad as each other, i think Townsend is considerably worse (again backed up by the above) i think he is less suited to our style of play as he doesn't pitch in with an acceptable level of off the ball/defensive contribution and we should be looking to move him on before ever doing so with Lamela. If Lamela doesn't improve beyond where he is now then i think we'll need to move him on also -

if someone comes in for him this summer and we have identified a target to replace him (along with Pritchard coming in for Townsend) then id be open to moving him on as it's not clear which way he will go next season - my gripe is with those suggesting he's worse than Townsend when everything i have seen on the pitch and the numbers across the board do not support that

Because the real top players or even the good creative players do not give the ball away as often as Lamela or Townsend do.

What exactly is a "key pass" btw?

Those stats make Lamela look better than Townsend, but they don't make either player look great. The most important stat for an attacking player IMO should be goals, and Townsend barely beats Lamela in this regard, even if they are "only penalties". A goal is a goal whether it's a deflection, a penalty or if it comes off a defender's arse.

Bottom line, Pritchard should be given a chance from the start next season above the both of them.

 

[scaramanga]

you will never, ever, admit to being wrong on a player

I gladly admit when I'm wrong - it's just very, very rare. When I am proved wrong it tends to be by someone with fairly extreme levels of intelligence or intense, specific and applicable knowledge.

Shall we all assume that won't happen here?

 

[billyiddo]

Because the real top players or even the good creative players do not give the ball away as often as Lamela or Townsend do.

What exactly is a "key pass" btw?

Those stats make Lamela look better than Townsend, but they don't make either player look great. The most important stat for an attacking player IMO should be goals, and Townsend barely beats Lamela in this regard, even if they are "only penalties". A goal is a goal whether it's a deflection, a penalty or if it comes off a defender's arse.

Bottom line, Pritchard should be given a chance from the start next season above the both of them.

But they are two unrelated aspects of a players game - give the ball away 10 times but create 10 chances doesn't make you less creative than someone who doesn't give the ball away at all and lays on 4 chances for his team mates, for example. Im struggling to your point here..

Goals are barely worth mentioning for either of them as neither player offers enough in this regard, not by a long stretch and is something both have to improve on massively to have any future with us. Would have Townsend as a penalty taker though for sure as he looks to have that particular skill nailed down.

Key Pass and Chance Created stats, i believe, relates to passes made which put players in to scoring positions - i don't know the specifics though other than they are commonly used to illustrate a creative players impact on games (along with assists ofcourse but this relies on the shooter converting his chance), combined with forward passes and pass completion stats i think it paints a good picture of how much effect a player has. A player with high numbers in these areas are effectively creating the most chances for the team to score (which is what i see on the pitch with my own eyes)

 

[LCLC]

As I've already said I thought he improved a lot in the second half, primarily he stopped giving the ball away so damned easily/often.

Checked to see if the stats would back that up or if it was just my perception. Whoscored.com (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/82...-Saudi Sportswashing Machine-United-Tottenham) has him with 12 losses of possession in total, for reference of the front 4 Kane had 12, Chadli 1 and Eriksen 8. 10 of those 12 losses of possession for Lamela came in the first half.

I will continue to claim that he was quite a bit better in the second.

As before some of Lamlea's problem (imo) seems to be picking when to take more high risk options and when to keep it lower risk. Think perhaps he was trying to do too much too soon in the first half and lacked the composure to just keep the ball moving instead. Settled down a bit second half.

I would, without a doubt, most definitely, keep him in the team next week if it was my decision.

And here lies the problem with stats. Giving the ball away is acceptable if you are playing a cross, a through ball etc - sonething those stats don't differentiate between. They don't show that nearly everytime he lost the ball it was because of a poor touch, dribbling in bad areas, bring stuck on his heels, playing a horrific pass etc - I did not notice any other player making the same mistakes time and time again. Second half he was far less involved. Judging on past actions by Poch, only he will know why Lamela wasn't pulled off at HT.

People like to make comparisons with a young ronaldo yet I don't see him overdoing it or showboating needlessly.... I see someone showing a lack of intelligence and making wrong decisions each time. For example for the goal, 90% of footballers would have played in Mason as he has the monentum and there was no way he could have caught. Kane was the slightly harder pass on the outside of the foot and the defender was looking to read that exact pass with his body position. Not taking away from the pass as it was well hit but it magnifies how he always seems to choose the hardest option and the reason why he keeps messing up. I don't think he will change and his youth and the ridiculous fee that we paid will mean he stays with us but our right wing options are currently pathetic

 

[LCLC]

If you can't see how hard he works and his constant movement then you're blind. Especially compared to Townsend who only ever moves when he has the ball or has a chance to get the ball. Lamela always looks for it, always providing an option. Forget ability, these are fantastic traits.

Never mind the assist he got. Townsend would have just run run run run run run run run, lose the ball....

How many assists/goals total is that now for Lamela?

Not nearly enough - that's the problem

 

[Armchair Expert]

I don't think we should be overlooking the fact that Lamela today also missed two good chances. So, in the second half he provided an assisst and got on the end of two passes where he could, and perhaps should, have scored. I don't recall the last time I saw Townsend make something resembling an intelligent run in behind the defence.

Lamela could conceivably had an goal and an assisst within 45 minutes today. Granted, he didn't take the chances but after coming back in after a long absence from the team I certainly saw enough to convince me that suspicions that Lamela is a thousand times better bet than Townsend certainly have substance (to put it mildly). It unquestionable that Lamela's industry and defensive work is far, far superior to Andros's. In fact, the return of Lamela today heralded the return of our pressing game. I sure that wasn't a coincidence.

I wanted to add i felt Dembele looked a cut above today when he came on. Thats for a different thread though.

 

[NWND]

I don't think we should be overlooking the fact that Lamela today also missed two good chances. So, in the second half he provided an assisst and got on the end of two passes where he could, and perhaps should, have scored. I don't recall the last time I saw Townsend make something resembling an intelligent run in behind the defence.

Lamela could conceivably had an goal and an assisst within 45 minutes today. Granted, he didn't take the chances but after coming back in after a long absence from the team I certainly saw enough to convince me that suspicions that Lamela is a thousand times better bet than Townsend certainly have substance (to put it mildly). It unquestionable that Lamela's industry and defensive work is far, far superior to Andros's. In fact, the return of Lamela today heralded the return of our pressing game. I sure that wasn't a coincidence.

I wanted to add i felt Dembele looked a cut above today when he came on. Thats for a different thread though.

I do agree that while he doesn't seem to perform well as an individual, there's no doubt in my mind that we seem to play better as a team with Lamela in the side as opposed to Townsend. As you say, he works harder both in terms of pressing high and tracking back. His enthusiasm seems to be infectious. Eriksen and Chadli always seem to work harder when Lamela is in the team.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Lamellas strength is his work rate
Townsends is his pace

Townsends pace isn't better than Lamellas work rate so he wins...

But their both poor players really when your comparing their most redeeming feature being basic skills rather than technical aspects

I'm sure some will see a string technical side to Lamellas game but he doesn't show it in games

Likewise Townsends pace is a bit if a blunt weapon if he can't pass...

I lie the idea suggested earlier about playing 4-3-3 with Dembele in the middle of the central 3 and letting Chadli eriksen and Kane play the attacking roles. Demeble can come onstage for chadlis lack of defensive work and hold the ball up in the right place for once and we get our top goal scorers on the pitch

 

[braineclipse]

And here lies the problem with stats. Giving the ball away is acceptable if you are playing a cross, a through ball etc - sonething those stats don't differentiate between. They don't show that nearly everytime he lost the ball it was because of a poor touch, dribbling in bad areas, bring stuck on his heels, playing a horrific pass etc - I did not notice any other player making the same mistakes time and time again. Second half he was far less involved. Judging on past actions by Poch, only he will know why Lamela wasn't pulled off at HT.

People like to make comparisons with a young ronaldo yet I don't see him overdoing it or showboating needlessly.... I see someone showing a lack of intelligence and making wrong decisions each time. For example for the goal, 90% of footballers would have played in Mason as he has the monentum and there was no way he could have caught. Kane was the slightly harder pass on the outside of the foot and the defender was looking to read that exact pass with his body position. Not taking away from the pass as it was well hit but it magnifies how he always seems to choose the hardest option and the reason why he keeps messing up. I don't think he will change and his youth and the ridiculous fee that we paid will mean he stays with us but our right wing options are currently pathetic

Another problem with stats is that it seemingly doesn't matter what kind of reasoning and rationality people use when presenting a stat. People will ignore that and rather argue the point they already had in mind as if they stat was posted completely in isolation.

Decision to play Kane through was perfectly fine. As you can see from this picture the Saudi Sportswashing Machine defender wasn't actually looking to read that exact pass with his body position as you claim. He was closer to Kane as Lamela broke, but Mason's run took drew in between the two and his momentum was actually taking him more towards Mason than Lamela. You can also see from that picture how the next Saudi Sportswashing Machine player (Ameobi?) is a lot closer to Mason than any player is to Kane. Whilst Mason's momentum is greater he's also more likely to run offside as he, unlike Kane, hasn't checked his run.