Forum Nazi's

[Skinhead in a Suit]

I agree with you on the whole but there are other issues to consider when he's posting junk health 'science'.

If he posts some junk about the dangers of immunisation and another poster's child dies of measles who is responsible?

The parent, certainly - they shouldn't be so stupid. Gifter would be too. But to some extent I'd be responsible as publisher here - as would any mod who allowed that **** into the public domain.

I don't think that's why Milo has acted here, it sounds more like Gifter was posting the same nonsense he's posted in any number of other threads. In which case, there's no need for another thread on it, he can just bump some of his old trash.

I think this reasoning is quite disturbing in the fact that you are now curbing free speech on a subject which you disagree on. There is ridiculous trash published every day across all forms of media, including YouTube, Facebook etc. which nobody gets taken to court over. Gifter is perfectly allowed to air his POV just as I can post about how bad I think a popular movie might be. As a parent, I would like to think you would do a lot more research on the subject of immunisation than taking the word of an anonymous poster on a football forum before making such an important decision. As an analogy, could I take you to court for publishing a comment saying that Defoe is the greatest Spurs player ever, then raising my son to play like Defoe and being ****ed off when he doesn't make it as a pro? I have no objection with Milo's reasoning on why the post was deleted btw

This one's for you, Gifter...

[video=youtube;2MuXgpl2Sxg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MuXgpl2Sxg[/video]

 

[scaramanga]

I think this reasoning is quite disturbing in the fact that you are now curbing free speech on a subject which you disagree on. There is ridiculous trash published every day across all forms of media, including YouTube, Facebook etc. which nobody gets taken to court over. Gifter is perfectly allowed to air his POV just as I can post about how bad I think a popular movie might be. As a parent, I would like to think you would do a lot more research on the subject of immunisation than taking the word of an anonymous poster on a football forum before making such an important decision. As an analogy, could I take you to court for publishing a comment saying that Defoe is the greatest Spurs player ever, then raising my son to play like Defoe and being ****ed off when he doesn't make it as a pro? I have no objection with Milo's reasoning on why the post was deleted btw

This one's for you, Gifter...

[video=youtube;2MuXgpl2Sxg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MuXgpl2Sxg[/video]

It's not that I think it's wrong that's the issue. It's that much of the advice he gives is considered dangerous by the medical profession.

Fortunately we have a number of sane posters here with good logical reasoning who are able to show his posts up for the dangerous nonsense they are.

As for parents following the advice of some random poster on the internet, what do you think started the anti-vaccination movement? And what do you think keeps it running? The whole movement is founded on people listening to those with no knowledge or expertise in a field and taking their advice.

Regarding censorship, it's not something I believe in on the whole. But, as with all beliefs, they are limited by the real world. All the time we have logical-minded people here to show these posts for what they are there isn't a problem. But if there's nobody arguing the case then leaving the original posts uncountered is (as their publisher) giving them my endorsement and spreading their dangerous seed.

Much like our Russian friend on the other side of the forum with his archaic and uncomfortable views on gay rights, or the one over here on the Big Issue and the homeless, I'd rather leave the posts in the open and proven wrong by other posters. If that's not happening though, where's the line to be drawn on what just gets left in the public domain?

 

[braineclipse]

I think this reasoning is quite disturbing in the fact that you are now curbing free speech on a subject which you disagree on. There is ridiculous trash published every day across all forms of media, including YouTube, Facebook etc. which nobody gets taken to court over. Gifter is perfectly allowed to air his POV just as I can post about how bad I think a popular movie might be. As a parent, I would like to think you would do a lot more research on the subject of immunisation than taking the word of an anonymous poster on a football forum before making such an important decision. As an analogy, could I take you to court for publishing a comment saying that Defoe is the greatest Spurs player ever, then raising my son to play like Defoe and being ****ed off when he doesn't make it as a pro? I have no objection with Milo's reasoning on why the post was deleted btw

This one's for you, Gifter...

[video=youtube;2MuXgpl2Sxg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MuXgpl2Sxg[/video]

I don't think you have a very good understanding of freedom of speech if you think Scara is curbing Gifter's freedom of speech here. Perhaps you were just sloppy in your wording, I suppose I'll give you that benefit of the doubt for now. If you actually meant what you wrote I suggest you read up on the subject, it's not particularly complicated.

Your comparison, at best an argument by analogy, is flawed from the get go. The two situations are not comparable in the way you suggest. The harm that results from anti-vaccine propaganda is well documented.

Another phenomenon that is well documented is the rather strong human preference for anecdotes over data. You might think that people should do a lot more research about a topic before making a decision, and most obviously do, but personal anecdotes makes a lot more of an impact than you seem to think. And as part of a complete flow of information the scare tactics and emotional arguments of the vaccine deniers has a very unfortunate effect.

As for the video. How much research did you do about it before sharing it? Some rather course googling led me to some rather convincing arguments that go against the validity of it. That's not the point though, my point is rather one about credulously sharing what can so obviously and easily be a fake. Did you do any fact checking? Did you look for counter arguments? Or did you just share it outright as it was? I feel quite confident that this video is not from anonymous, the fact that whoever created it felt a need to pretend that it was to lend credit to themselves as a source should tell you a lot about whose information you're spreading.

 

[braineclipse]

It's not that I think it's wrong that's the issue. It's that much of the advice he gives is considered dangerous by the medical profession.

Fortunately we have a number of sane posters here with good logical reasoning who are able to show his posts up for the dangerous nonsense they are.

As for parents following the advice of some random poster on the internet, what do you think started the anti-vaccination movement? And what do you think keeps it running? The whole movement is founded on people listening to those with no knowledge or expertise in a field and taking their advice.

Regarding censorship, it's not something I believe in on the whole. But, as with all beliefs, they are limited by the real world. All the time we have logical-minded people here to show these posts for what they are there isn't a problem. But if there's nobody arguing the case then leaving the original posts uncountered is (as their publisher) giving them my endorsement and spreading their dangerous seed.

Much like our Russian friend on the other side of the forum with his archaic and uncomfortable views on gay rights, or the one over here on the Big Issue and the homeless, I'd rather leave the posts in the open and proven wrong by other posters. If that's not happening though, where's the line to be drawn on what just gets left in the public domain?

In general I'm a fan of discussing something to death rather than trying to silence something. Silencing something generally doesn't work. But I agree that when it comes to stuff like this at least some caution should be used and although I, like you, am a fan of open and free discussions I agree that this doesn't mean that people should be free to post and share information however they want on a site like this without a responsible operator making at least some limitations. To me, the idea that stuff like this should at least be somewhat contained in some threads is a solid point and a half decent compromise.

A rather large part of the start of the anti-vaccine movement was due to greedy people being greedy. Lawyers with clients that were suing vaccine manufacturers and patent holders of rival vaccines wanting their rivals smeared. "Follow the money" the conspiracy theorists say, in itself not a bad idea, just a shame that thinking stops when they're considering their own alternative explanations. The credulous spreading of misinformation by well intentioned people certainly also plays a massive part, I don't disagree with you there.

 

[johnola]

As an illuminati lizard person myself I will sleep that little easier in my nest tonight.

I fear my atlantean big footed friends might make merry this evening. Lock your doors.

 

[Superted]

I always feel a bit awkward rubbing one out to Jenny McCarthy these days due to her anti-vax stance.

 

[scaramanga]

I always feel a bit awkward rubbing one out to Jenny McCarthy these days due to her anti-vax stance.

I wonder if semen could be used as a delivery method for vaccines?

 

[AuroRaman]

I think writing off Gifter's post as nonsense should be clarified as an opinion, personally.

We've had a few posts/threads on this topic I deleting/moving threads/posts. Perhaps it would be an idea to send a quick message to the poster explaining why? Not trying to be difficult towards mods but going forward it might save the hassle of dealing with angry posters

I hope Gifter's does come back.

 

[scaramanga]

I think writing off Gifter's post as nonsense should be clarified as an opinion, personally.

We've had a few posts/threads on this topic I deleting/moving threads/posts. Perhaps it would be an idea to send a quick message to the poster explaining why? Not trying to be difficult towards mods but going forward it might save the hassle of dealing with angry posters

I hope Gifter's does come back.

That wasn't why it was deleted, Milo deleted the post because it just repeated stuff from existing threads and was spamming.

I raised the point more as a theoretical discussion, and I think there's some valid discussion to be had from it. A little dry a subject maybe but as the person with responsibility for this site, one I find interesting.

 

[AuroRaman]

That wasn't why it was deleted, Milo deleted the post because it just repeated stuff from existing threads and was spamming.

I raised the point more as a theoretical discussion, and I think there's some valid discussion to be had from it. A little dry a subject maybe but as the person with responsibility for this site, one I find interesting.

Sorry mate, didn't clarify. The first part of my post wasn't assuming that was why it was deleted, more so posts on this thread. Just felt it was a bit unfair that some posts seemed to call out Gifter for deriding common practices then dismissing his as nonsense.

I can see both sides and was more trying to play devils advocate. I've always found this subject fascinating on here and especially enjoyed Gifter and Braineclipse locking horns!

 

[Superted]

I wonder if semen could be used as a delivery method for vaccines?

Jenny McCarthy is pro-semen though. It would be quite the conundrum.

 

[scaramanga]

Sorry mate, didn't clarify. The first part of my post wasn't assuming that was why it was deleted, more so posts on this thread. Just felt it was a bit unfair that some posts seemed to call out Gifter for deriding common practices then dismissing his as nonsense.

I can see both sides and was more trying to play devils advocate. I've always found this subject fascinating on here and especially enjoyed Gifter and Braineclipse locking horns!

I guess nonsense is entirely subjective and without wanting to overstate the obvious, it depends on where one draws the line of 'sense'.

For some, that would be gravity - denying its existence would be nonsense. For me, stating a belief that's been overwhelming proven wrong with real, hard evidence, again and again is way past that line of what's sense.

There are some opinions that are reasonable, just misguided (like belief in the benefits of socialism ) which deserve equal billing in a discussion. But there are some that really are literally nonsense - not in an insulting 'I don't want to listen to your opinion' sort of way, but are actual nonsense. As in an absence of any sense, logic or reasoning in the thought process that created the post.

 

[AuroRaman]

I guess nonsense is entirely subjective and without wanting to overstate the obvious, it depends on where one draws the line of 'sense'.

For some, that would be gravity - denying its existence would be nonsense. For me, stating a belief that's been overwhelming proven wrong with real, hard evidence, again and again is way past that line of what's sense.

There are some opinions that are reasonable, just misguided (like belief in the benefits of socialism ) which deserve equal billing in a discussion. But there are some that really are literally nonsense - not in an insulting 'I don't want to listen to your opinion' sort of way, but are actual nonsense. As in an absence of any sense, logic or reasoning in the thought process that created the post.

Great post, I agree on the whole. I do like to dabble in the nonsensical every now and then

 

[braineclipse]

Very solid post scara. To use and example that Gifter didn't use, seeing as he's not here to defend himself, take evolution denialism. It's blatantly nonsense to me, a lot of people hold that view, but that doesn't change anything.

Auro: Isn't it quite obvious that what people post on a forum is their opinion? Whose opinion would it be if not their own?

If you like to dabble in the nonsensical I'll ask you the same question I asked gifter quite often. How do you separate fact from fiction? Assuming that you care about your beliefs being congruent with reality how do you make sure that they are? It seems to me that science, although obviously not perfect, has proven itself the best available method for this by far. I've yet to see anyone from the alternative side present an objective standard for this that even comes close to the scientific method.

 

[AuroRaman]

Hey BE

With regards to your first question, yes it should be obvious, but I do feel at times that posters (I include myself in this) can sometimes present an opinion as a fact. Nothing wrong with that, it is natural when one is discussing a subject one is so passionate about. I just wanted to clarify that I felt there was a double-standard. Of course, that is just my opinion

To your second set of questions. I believe very much in the scientific method. I am in awe of scientists and their passion to find logic in their investigations and experiments. I love that scientists are essentially dedicated to spending their whole lives trying to prove themselves wrong and searching for 'truth'. If we are talking about 'alternative medicines and practices' specifically, I believe I have discussed this with yourself in a previous Gifter thread. As I said then, I can only go by my own personal experience and I will never try to pass off my own experiences as scientific fact or truth that these methods can work. In my experience, some methods have proven to work for me, myself and I.

In saying that, I have never got to the point where Gifter is at, where he will pursue an 'alternative' method to every aspect of his lifestyle and well-being. I am small-fry in that aspect and the reality is I don't lead a massively alternative lifestyle. The single greatest decision I have ever made is turning to a vegetarian lifestyle. It has worked for me both with my physical appearance and personal/emotional well-being. I would not preach this as the best option but sure as hell will defend myself and offer my views if I am derided for being a vegetarian, which is sadly very often and gets to the point where people have gone into a blind-rage when calling me out for not eating meat.

My 'nonsensical' quote in my post was more tongue-in-cheek, rather than anything else. Having said that, I believe in extra-terrestrial life, a form of global 'Illuminati' and the belief that hugging trees is genuinely good for the soul, which could be described as nonsensical to the mainstream. I also believe Spurs are the greatest team the world has ever seen, not sure if that comes under 'nonsensical' or not!

Just as an aside, I love your discussions with Gifter and you are both very clearly knowledgeable with your beliefs, far more than I. I also liked that on the whole the discussion were respectful yet determined. You have also educated me previously in the aforementioned thread by bringing to attention an area in the pro/anti vaccination debate I had never heard of before. I thank you for that.

Edit - I've had a whiskey, so apologies if my post is a bit all over the place.

 

[braineclipse]

Auro:

Your post was perfectly coherent, cheers for your nice words by the way

I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't do what works for them, but in my opinion personal experience should always be at least viewed in the light of a larger body of evidence. A lot is known these days about the placebo effect, confirmation bias and a host of heuristics that makes us quite vulnerable to making mistakes when judging what works and what doesn't. I appreciate that you don't share your personal experience as facts, I wish more would do the same.

A somewhat similar question as before about conspiracy theories like the illuminati and extra terrestrials (assuming that you weren't just talking about there being life somewhere in the universe). How do you decide which conspiracy theories to believe in? At some point at least the grand conspiracy theories reach the point where evidence for and against really doesn't matter as they become wholly unfalsifiable as all contradicting evidence can be explained as being just a part of the conspiracy. What makes you believe in some and not others?

Just to be clear I'm not saying that there are no conspiracy theories, I think that would be rather a-historical. I just don't see compelling reasons to believe in any of the popular conspiracy theories being presented by the alternative side (for a lack of a better description).

As for tree-hugging, not sure if you were being literal, but there is as far as I know fairly convincing evidence that experiences in nature can have a positive effect on mental health and well being (and thus most likely an indirect positive effect on physical health) at least for some people. From what I've seen this is usually talked about in terms of walking in nature and similar, but I don't think it's too far fetched to think that hugging a tree could have some benefit for at least some portion of the population assuming that the tree is in a natural setting and you have to move to that setting to hug said tree. Just as long as we stay well away from life force, energy, universal power, streaming consciousness and similar explanations for a phenomenon like this

 

[braineclipse]

Oh, by the way Auro, I have no problems with you being a vegetarian I'm very much in the "more bacon for me" camp

 

[Boonie]

At the end of the day this is a moderated forum, if you don't like how it is done go elsewhere. Simple. Oh thats just my opinion btw.

 

[Jordinho]

At the end of the day this is a moderated forum, if you don't like how it is done go elsewhere. Simple. Oh thats just my opinion btw.

Hey, that's my opinion. Give it back. :x

 

[AuroRaman]

Oh, by the way Auro, I have no problems with you being a vegetarian I'm very much in the "more bacon for me" camp

Sorry for the lack of reply mate, currently travelling around NZ, will get back to you as soon as I have reliable t'internet!

Yesterday I swam in open water with Bottlenose dolphins. And saw a French girls ample boob when it popped out of her bikini on the boat. ****ing beautiful day!