F.A statement on the word "yid"

[Harry_Perkins]

It's chicken & egg stuff. He says we shoud stop calling ourselves Yid and the abuse from Chelsea fans will stop

I don't see that anywhere? I don't think anyone is naive enough to think they'll stop just because we will but if we do then it does make the anti-Semitic language easier to root out. No one could then hide behind the 'they call themselves yids' thing and the naive people who think 'yid' just means 'Spurs fan' certainly might think again. Again, how do you distinguish between the hardcore anti-semites and those who simply mean 'yid' as in 'Spurs fan'? That is why he is saying that he wants the language out of football and to do that you can't say one set of fans can use it and another can't. That seems fairly sensible to me.

If Spurs fans started burning the Australian flag and sing anti-Australian songs such that Spurs got themselves a reputation as Anti-Australian, whereby I would feel intimidated and unwelcome at WHL, you can bet your sweet ass I would stop considering myself a Spurs fan.

Mate, seriously, the far-right once tried to organise at Spurs and largely people did not walk away and leave them in place but instead showed them the door. So I don't have anytime for this argument that Baddiel, his brother and other Jews should stop supporting or going to Chelsea? Why should they? If they do then the bigots win. He has rightly made a stand and said he doesn't want to hear this ****e at football full stop. Again, how long would this have lasted if we'd become known as a 'black club' and called ourselves the 'nigger army'? Or an 'Asian club' chanting 'paki, paki, paki' at our heroes? Maybe after the upteempth points deduction? It has only been ignored in this instance, as Baddiel rightly says, because Jews are a tiny minority in the UK and any concerns can largely be ignored or dismissed. Up until now anyway.

 

[screen nayim]

I watched the History of the Jews last night, presented by Simon Schama. That programme was full to the brim of the Y-word. I hope Baddiel didn't watch it otherwise he'll be claiming that legitimises the behaviour of all his Chelsea mates too.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

As I've said before, I'm not particularly fond of these chants as I'm not Jewish and can't really relate to it but it's not racist in any way. Eminem uses the word Nigga in a lot of his songs and guess what, he's white

Yes but he presumably doesn't claim to be reclaiming the word for black people? Given he isn't black, how could he? And so it goes with 95% of support being non-Jewish yet using this logic. You can't reclaim something that wasn't yours in the first place.

 

[Superted]

Harry I think well leave it as is. We're obviously looking at the same facts and coming to two different conclusions. I always believe you sort your own **** out. Until his club can hold its head high on the issue, he should keep out of Spurs business. As I said if it were Liverpool fans saying it, you'd listen. As far as im aware, there's little anti-semitism from their fans.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Harry I think well leave it as is. We're obviously looking at the same facts and coming to two different conclusions. I always believe you sort your own **** out. Until his club can hold its head high on the issue, he should keep out of Spurs business. As I said if it were Liverpool fans saying it, you'd listen. As far as im aware, there's little anti-semitism from their fans.

Liverpool undoubtedly have less of the hardcore anti-semites you get somewhere like Chelsea but I've heard plenty of them call us 'yid' this or that. Now, do they mean 'yid' as in Jew or do they mean 'yid' as in 'Spurs fan'? How many of them even understand the difference? And when you get the same thing going on at every club, it is clear that Baddiel, and the Jews who echo his argument, have a point. There can't just be a call for fans of other clubs to stop using it but we can still use it. It just wouldn't be credible. And lets be clear again, his focus has largely been on awareness rather than saying from his ivory tower that we, and we alone, should stop chanting it. Just today on his twitter there was a Spurs fan who said he had no idea about the history behind the word, the Blackshirts and so forth re: the piece you posted above. If so many Spurs fans were not even aware then just what is it like at other clubs?

 

[Baleforce]

this isn't a highlander situation, there are plenty of example of one group being allowed to do something other groups can't, surely we are capable of understanding and applying context

 

[billyiddo]

Why can't one group be allowed to use a word in a positive context whilst those using it in a negative be banned?
It's not the word itself which is the problem it's those that use it in an offensive (anti semetic) manner.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

this isn't a highlander situation, there are plenty of example of one group being allowed to do something other groups can't, surely we are capable of understanding and applying context

So how is this understood and how do we apply the context here? I'm allowed to go into the Spurs end and use 'yid' as much as I like. I'm not Jewish but I've reclaimed the word for Jews (???) and I'm therefore apparently actually some sort of big anti-racist champion. Meanwhile, someone in the away end uses 'yid' in a negative way. 'Yid scum' maybe. To them it might mean the same as 'Spurs scum' but one is allowed and the other isn't. He is carted off and given a banning order from football. Meanwhile, there are actual Jews sitting near him in the away end, listening to 'yid' coming back and forth in the way that it is? How credible it is to say to them that the reason they have to listen to this ****e at football lies only with other clubs and not with us? We can use it but others can't? And that is the main reason this has ended up as such a public campaign. Ordinary Jewish fans of other clubs, and a silent minority of Jews at Spurs, have been complaining about this for years and years. It was an issue long before the Baddiel brothers video.

 

[Baleforce]

each on its merits, you can't ban a word from all use just because some people find it offensive in certain situations, if that logic was applied generally you'd have to wipe out half the dictionary

 

[Harry_Perkins]

each on its merits, you can't ban a word from all use just because some people find it offensive in certain situations, if that logic was applied generally you'd have to wipe out half the dictionary

It is less a case of trying to get it banned and more about showing some good manners to Jews who don't want to hear it coming back and forth at football. You wouldn't do in the street if someone said 'please stop' but collectively it is apparently fine to do this with Jewish football fans.

 

[billyiddo]

How can you ban someone from saying something in a positive manner? that's the bottom line really. Some Jews may take offense but plenty others don't - it's not as though the entire Jewish faith is unified in trying to make us stop using the word - in that case im sure many of us would re think it's use

 

[Harry_Perkins]

How can you ban someone from saying something in a positive manner? that's the bottom line really. Some Jews may take offense but plenty others don't - it's not as though the entire Jewish faith is unified in trying to make us stop using the word - in that case im sure many of us would re think it's use

Mate, the Jewish Board of Deputies have said they hope people will desist from using it, even though they understand it isn't always used in a negative way: http://www.bod.org.uk/live/content.php?Item_ID=130&Blog_ID=1010. That is the biggest representative group for Jews in Britain and they're not exactly known for being overly sensitive. Kick if Out have had a considerable number of complaints for years about the chanting. Yes, it isn't the entire race but is also pretty clear it isn't a small number of overly sensitive Jews either. Again, you wouldn't do it in the street. If someone asked you stop using certain language and you carried on, you'd be considered a bit ignorant. And that is collectively the situation we're in as a club now.

 

[SpursLodge]

Yes but he presumably doesn't claim to be reclaiming the word for black people? Given he isn't black, how could he? And so it goes with 95% of support being non-Jewish yet using this logic. You can't reclaim something that wasn't yours in the first place.

So why is he using it then and why is it ok for him? Surely if it's offensive for us to use a race-hate word no matter what the context because we are not Jewish then it should be offensive for him to use a race-hate word no matter what the context because he isn't black?

 

[Harry_Perkins]

So why is he using it then and why is it ok for him? Surely if it's offensive for us to use a race-hate word no matter what the context because we are not Jewish then it should be offensive for him to use a race-hate word no matter what the context because he isn't black?

Where did I say it was okay for him? That said, I just took your word for it that he does this but a quick search bring up articles where he specifically says he wouldn't use it in his songs for the reasoning I've already given. He can't reclaim something that wasn't his in the first place. I don't know if he's changed his mind since then but it wouldn't change anything. He'd be in the wrong if he was using it.

 

[Baleforce]

is it reclaiming it or redefining it?

 

[rxl]

I'm not Jewish, and as has been pointed out, the Jewish community is in the minority. However, if I was a minority, I couldn't think of anything better than having such a huge fanbase (worldwide) having my back. As inappropriate as some of the Jewish community may find it there are plenty of others who would rather have Tottenham onside.

You must recognise that the antisemitic chants have decreased in general at Spurs matches (even before the kick it out campaign), whether that is because the 'abusive' word has been diluted by Tottenham fans' attachment and therefore not as effective as abuse, or whether generations have a more clouded view of history and it's relevance in terms of abuse is debatable, but lets not kid ourselves the 'hissers' are hardly going to be professors of History.

Difficult subject this one, but in my opinion Tottenham, and it's fans do far more good for the term than bad.

 

[treepits]

Where did I say it was okay for him? That said, I just took your word for it that he does this but a quick search bring up articles where he specifically says he wouldn't use it in his songs for the reasoning I've already given. He can't reclaim something that wasn't his in the first place. I don't know if he's changed his mind since then but it wouldn't change anything. He'd be in the wrong if he was using it.

But is it OK for black rappers to use the word? I ask because I am Jewish and when I go down the Lane I join in the 'yid army' chant as loudly as anyone else. Is that allowed because I'm Jewish?

I haven't read the whole thread but I'm assuming the word 'context' has probably come up now and again. Would I be upset if somebody came up to me in the street and called me a yid scum? Yes. Do I get upset when we chant yid army at Spurs? No. I'm assuming Jermaine Defoe does not believe we are calling him Jewish and insulting him because of it when we claim he's a yiddo

 

[inkpenspur]

I watched the History of the Jews last night, presented by Simon Schama. That programme was full to the brim of the Y-word. I hope Baddiel didn't watch it otherwise he'll be claiming that legitimises the behaviour of all his Chelsea mates too.

Well they ought to get on... they went to the same school!

 

[Harry_Perkins]

But is it OK for black rappers to use the word? I ask because I am Jewish and when I go down the Lane I join in the 'yid army' chant as loudly as anyone else. Is that allowed because I'm Jewish?

I think you can at least say you're reclaiming the word from the anti-Semites who have directed this at Jews over the years. It doesn't follow with non-Jews though - who are in the vast majority at games. I've never been racially abused as a 'yid'. It is not mine term to redefine or reclaim. Do you think we'd even be having this conversation if we were known as an 'Asian club' and a mostly white crowd was chanting 'paki army' every week? And I don't think a few Asian fans in that instance saying they're fine with it would make things look any better. It would quickly end after the fines and home games behind closed doors.

Which bring things onto a seperate point - which is how far will this be taken? For years the carrot approach has been used. 'Please stop using it' we've been asked from the various authorities. Now the stick is starting to appear. We onto to threats that individuals could be prosecuted. I think this is unworkable. They're going to prosecute tens of thousands of people? So the next step will be collective punishment. Fines, home games behind close doors, points deduction? What then?

 

[Harry_Perkins]

You must recognise that the antisemitic chants have decreased in general at Spurs matches (even before the kick it out campaign), whether that is because the 'abusive' word has been diluted by Tottenham fans' attachment and therefore not as effective as abuse, or whether generations have a more clouded view of history and it's relevance in terms of abuse is debatable, but lets not kid ourselves the 'hissers' are hardly going to be professors of History

I think the opposite is the case. 'Yids' related chanting at football has got worse and worse as we are ever more associated with being 'the yids'. Meanwhile, racist language at football generally has mostly been on the decline. The extreme cases are highlighted because they are so rare these days. This is ultimately why we've ended up being targeted. It wasn't a high profile case back in the 80s when black players used to get dog's abuse but that has stopped and us using 'yids' has not.