European Super League - Dead on arrival

[BrainOfLevy]

I don't think I am giving up any rights, I don't think I ever had any.

Jesus...seriously!?

I'm not suggesting fans need to start opining on transfers for example. Leave that to the experts. I'm talking about stuff that will materially affect the fan experience - the essence of competition, the availability of matches, our relationship with the rest of the pyramid. These are absolutely things a fan can have an opinion on.

 

[Baleforce]

You, as a fan, who will be part of a group of 100s of 1000s of Spurs fans across the country. At what point does 'the business being successful' come into conflict with what you want to see as a fan? At what point will you be less interested in the club as a result? And at what point will you wish that you fought for what you first fell in love with about this game, because you see it's moved too far away from it?

I want to see the club be successful, I'll take that at any cost.

I'm more likely to dip in and out of interest due to results than anything else.

It might help to add that I also support a team in a different sport on a different continent where I already have to work around middle of the night kick off times and have no chance of regular attendance, I don't consider myself any less a fan of that team than I do Spurs.

 

[Baleforce]

Jesus...seriously!?

I'm not suggesting fans need to start opining on transfers for example. Leave that to the experts. I'm talking about stuff that will materially affect the fan experience - the essence of competition, the availability of matches, our relationship with the rest of the pyramid. These are absolutely things a fan can have an opinion on.

And we vote on that with our wallets.

I don't care about the rest of the pyramid and I think many fans (including some in the trust) do think they should get a say on transfers.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

And we vote on that with our wallets.

And you don't see the benefit in not having the hilarious PR rooster up that was the ESL announcement, if they maybe just considered fan experience first?

 

[Legohamster]

You're not supposed to run the whole thing, you're supposed to, in this example, offer a fan's perspective. And then you would have a debate with people offering the broadcast perspective, the player's perspective, the bank's perspective etc etc.

All I'm saying is, why would you be so willing to give up your rights as a fan and at what point does that stop? At what point does progress and money come into conflict with the game you fell in love with? Because unchecked, it will happen. Global touring during regular season, Game 39, closed shop Super Leagues.

In Levy’s defence, he does champion the supporters trust and holds meetings with them regularly - Is this something other clubs do?

I personally don’t think a supporter/group on the board will stop any of what you have mentioned in the long run.

Isn’t Levy a supporter of Spurs anyway? Lols if he appoints himself. Lol

 

[Baleforce]

And you don't see the benefit in not having the hilarious PR rooster up that was the ESL announcement, if they maybe just considered fan experience first?

If it had been me I'd have told them to go for it, I was pro the ESL.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I want to see the club be successful, I'll take that at any cost.

I'm more likely to dip in and out of interest due to results than anything else.

It might help to add that I also support a team in a different sport on a different continent where I already have to work around middle of the night kick off times and have no chance of regular attendance, I don't consider myself any less a fan of that team as I do Spurs.

Fine, but I'm not talking about your personal experience individually, I'm saying in the round, at what point does the game become less interesting to you? Do results in a ESL mean as much to you? I certainly thought they would mean less, and I'd be less interested in the club as a result.

And what point does the game change so much that results don't mean as much? At what point do you think fans in the UK are missing out on watching a regular season game because we are currently touring in Singapore in November, and at what point do you think those fans that are missing out deserve a right to say 'hey, just because our ticket prices are a smaller slice of the overall income of the club nowadays, we still deserve a say, and this sucks?'.

Do those fans not deserve a say? Does the concept of missing regular season games because we've gone abroad sound perfectly fine for you, and do you think we should just do it, because it nets us more money?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

If it had been me I'd have told them to go for it, I was pro the ESL.

If you were on there you'd be responsible for representing the broad views of the base, most of him would have been in vehement disagreement, no?

 

[milo]

And you don't see the benefit in not having the hilarious PR rooster up that was the ESL announcement, if they maybe just considered fan experience first?

They wouldn't have been able to discuss that with fans regardless of who sits on the board. They'd signed NDAs.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

In Levy’s defence, he does champion the supporters trust and holds meetings with them regularly - Is this something other clubs do?

I personally don’t think a supporter/group on the board will stop any of what you have mentioned in the long run.

Isn’t Levy a supporter of Spurs anyway? Lols if he appoints himself. Lol

Sure, I have no problem with Levy in how he handles fan engagement typically. He definitely pays a lot of lip service to THST.

If you don't think any representation will stop any of this in the long run, fine. But in that case we may all just give up and go home, and accept fans really don't deserve a say on anything when it comes to the future of the game, up against unfettered capitalism and the desire for 'progress' and money. Personally I think if someone had a seat on the board, and used their profile in the press when big decisions looked like they weren't getting a fair hearing from the fans perspective, I think it would make a difference.

 

[Raziel]

Same question to you - at what point does the club's insatiable capitalist desire for more money and 'progress' which takes them further into Asia, Africa and the US come into conflict with your opinions as a fan to the point where you stop following the club? Will you be happy with the progress and be comfortable sending the club on it's merry way, even though the game you love is unrecognisable from when you started watching them? At one point do you just say 'no, this sucks?'. Or does that point never happen, because you think the club is making more money, and that's all that matters?

We absolutely have a right, and a say, and it is a fight. We can fight for it to still be the game we love as much as possible, or we can let it go. When we're all dead, the club can do what it wants, but why when we are in the prime of our lives would we just say it's fine, go ahead and make more money, even though I will probably be less interested in it?

Mate, you and every other supporter in the UK are in denial

- You stopped being the primary customer a long time ago, the regular seat buyer/season ticket holder is probably the least relevant "customer" now, overseas tv rights -> local tv -> commercials -> local supporter
- The more your club is successful, the more casual fans become the primary target
- Mentioned it a while back, Spurs could think of customers like -> supporter (ad hoc customer) -> physical subscribers (ticket buyer/season ticket holder) -> digital subscribers (cost less, less headache to manage)
- Spurs has 200+ supporters clubs worldwide with some estimates of 1-2M+ individuals plus casuals (literally billions), run a few scenarios -> I'll give an easy one, club sells games online for $5/pop, how many do you have to sell to match seats?

In 5-10 years from now it will be even worse, if you want to matter to your local club, the PL isn't the place to do it.

 

[Baleforce]

Fine, but I'm not talking about your personal experience individually, I'm saying in the round, at what point does the game become less interesting to you? Do results in a ESL mean as much to you? I certainly thought they would mean less, and I'd be less interested in the club as a result.

Yes, they would have done, as that would have been where the best teams/players were so the pinnacle of the sport.

And what point does the game change so much that results don't mean as much? At what point do you think fans in the UK are missing out on watching a regular season game because we are currently touring in Singapore in November, and at what point do you think those fans that are missing out deserve a right to say 'hey, just because our ticket prices are a smaller slice of the overall income of the club nowadays, we still deserve a say, and this sucks?'.

I don't know, but if it gets to that point it's probably less of a wrench to move on. I used to watch The Walking Dead, then I got bored of it and don't watch it anymore, I don't feel I've lost anything.

Do those fans not deserve a say? Does the concept of missing regular season games because we've gone abroad sound perfectly fine for you, and do you think we should just do it, because it nets us more money?

As long as the fans are not having to pay for games they can't get to I think its fine, as long as the contractual obligations are met I can't see any grounds for complaint. Nobody has a "right" to see every game.

Answers inline in bold.

 

[Raziel]

They wouldn't have been able to discuss that with fans regardless of who sits on the board. They'd signed NDAs.

It's even worse, let's say a fan had all the access to the decision re ESL and this was the scenario

- Join the ESL or immediately give up a £500M deficit to 6 other clubs in the PL and 15 total in Europe

Who was going to say no?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

They wouldn't have been able to discuss that with fans regardless of who sits on the board. They'd signed NDAs.

I feel like I am clearly not articulating my point well here. Everyone is burrowing into very specific points of this, and I'm just saying my general point is - at what point does the unrestricted desire for progress and money come into conflict with the fan's desires, and at what point should fans fight back?

If a fan was elected to the board, they would have a pretty clear understanding of what the view on a ESL would be, the general idea of it, whether or not they could discuss that it was actually going ahead.

I am frankly surprised that so many people are willing to argue that their voices don't matter, even if it leads on to things like Super Leagues, Game 39s, global touring, and stuff that would be tailored to catering to the global fan rather than the home fan. And people seem absolutely fine with it, because it's progress and money?

I think the reaction to the ESL was a great opportunity to get fan's voices heard, I think we are in a nice moment in history. It doesn't mean we let a fan run the club, and opine on things they know nothing about. It does mean they offer their perspective on things they are perfectly justified to talk about.

 

[Baleforce]

If you were on there you'd be responsible for representing the broad views of the base, most of him would have been in vehement disagreement, no?

I don't know how that would have actually worked in practice, I doubt I'd have been sent away to harvest opinion.

As @milo has said, going forward that situation is unlikely to arise anyway.

 

[Lilbaz]

They wouldn't have been able to discuss that with fans regardless of who sits on the board. They'd signed NDAs.

Surely a fans rep by it's very nature can't sign an nda. His whole purpose is to reflect the views of the fans so must be able to confer with them.

How does it work in germany, not for football i am talking workers sitting on the board.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Answers inline in bold.

All totally fine, your personal preference, but I think in the round there will be many people who think for example that they would struggle to get excited for ESL games, that they had serious misgivings about its effect on the overall football pyramid, and that they'd want to be able to continue to see Spurs at home. These fans deserve a voice IMO.

 

[Baleforce]

I feel like I am clearly not articulating my point well here. Everyone is burrowing into very specific points of this, and I'm just saying my general point is - at what point does the unrestricted desire for progress and money come into conflict with the fan's desires, and at what point should fans fight back?

If a fan was elected to the board, they would have a pretty clear understanding of what the view on a ESL would be, the general idea of it, whether or not they could discuss that it was actually going ahead.

I am frankly surprised that so many people are willing to argue that their voices don't matter, even if it leads on to things like Super Leagues, Game 39s, global touring, and stuff that would be tailored to catering to the global fan rather than the home fan. And people seem absolutely fine with it, because it's progress and money?

I think the reaction to the ESL was a great opportunity to get fan's voices heard, I think we are in a nice moment in history. It doesn't mean we let a fan run the club, and opine on things they know nothing about. It does mean they offer their perspective on things they are perfectly justified to talk about.

I feel like you've been arguing in other threads that you want more on the pitch from Spurs, that only happens with more money.

 

[milo]

I feel like I am clearly not articulating my point well here. Everyone is burrowing into very specific points of this, and I'm just saying my general point is - at what point does the unrestricted desire for progress and money come into conflict with the fan's desires, and at what point should fans fight back?

If a fan was elected to the board, they would have a pretty clear understanding of what the view on a ESL would be, the general idea of it, whether or not they could discuss that it was actually going ahead.

I am frankly surprised that so many people are willing to argue that their voices don't matter, even if it leads on to things like Super Leagues, Game 39s, global touring, and stuff that would be tailored to catering to the global fan rather than the home fan. And people seem absolutely fine with it, because it's progress and money?

I think the reaction to the ESL was a great opportunity to get fan's voices heard, I think we are in a nice moment in history. It doesn't mean we let a fan run the club, and opine on things they know nothing about. It does mean they offer their perspective on things they are perfectly justified to talk about.

The board would not discuss something like the ESL in front of the fans' rep, it would be dealt with outside of the board meetings. They are not going to discuss anything that is commercially sensitive in front of someone who will blab about it on Twitter.

 

[milo]

Surely a fans rep by it's very nature can't sign an nda. His whole purpose is to reflect the views of the fans so must be able to confer with them.

How does it work in germany, not for football i am talking workers sitting on the board.

The club signed NDAs in ESL negotiations. They would've been in breach of those if they had discussed the plans with fans reps. These proposals would do nothing to stop another ESL.