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ENIC

Bishop said:
Top 4 is a means to an end not the end. I did not say that the model we should follow would see us outside of the top 4 regularly. I actually think the opposite but yes I would be willing to accept lower finishes if I can see and understand a consistent model of application that leads to overall progression.

As it is now, we lurch from one strategy to the other and that does not allow any consistency and easily repeatable results. Nor does it allow us to build on the successes we do garner.

We just about managed to scrape top 4 last season (largely down to Arsenal bottling it) but look unlikely to do so again this year and now have yet another managerial change and likely another significant adjustment as yet another manager will come in and find the players already in situ do not fit his playing style.

If you like the randomness of pairing "world class" managers with developing players and watching the inevitable fallout, well cool for you. Instead I'd rather see the club have a consistent strategy that it can build upon to actually achieve real success.

But that's just me. *Shrug*

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There's no problem with pairing world class managers with developing players, that is part of the job of a manager, especially one being paid £15m. The likes of Pep and Klopp has developed players and they are world class. Every player should be looking to continually develop or do you believe Kane has stopped developing himself and his style of play throughout his career.

Most players can play in multiple systems, maybe there will be a couple that aren't suited to a new manager and it doesn't mean wholesale changes. The issue is having players not good enough no matter what the style or system is.
 
DubSpur said:
Who is this old guard that we should shift? There has been a lot of new players in the last 2-3 years. Two of the players that you name that we should build around, Son & Kane, would be the old guard to me.
Leaves only Lloris, who will be replaced this summer, Dier and Davies. So that's two we need to shift?
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The old guard could include Davies, Dier, Sanchez, Lloris, Moura, Kane and Son. 5 of whom have been pretty much cast iron starters, the 6th a regular sub when fit. As much as Kane and Son are important to us, at this point building around them is not the wisest course of action despite how painful that might appear to be.

Not to mention players still on the books who have been here a while; Rodon, Ndombele, GLC and Winks.

We have actually done a partial rebuild but sadly it's been across three or four different managers so the influx of new players don't all really fit together in a cohesive system.

No doubt the next coach will also require some new faces and significant surgery to the squad. [emoji52]

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DubSpur said:
There's no problem with pairing world class managers with developing players, that is part of the job of a manager, especially one being paid £15m. The likes of Pep and Klopp has developed players and they are world class. Every player should be looking to continually develop or do you believe Kane has stopped developing himself and his style of play throughout his career.

Most players can play in multiple systems, maybe there will be a couple that aren't suited to a new manager and it doesn't mean wholesale changes. The issue is having players not good enough no matter what the style or system is.
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Yes there is a problem when those world class managers specifically do not work with those kind of players. That is not what got them their success in the first place and it is not the way either of them know how to work.

Neither coach are Pep or Klopp who have both previously excelled at bringing in young players and developing underappreciated gems.

You're trying to ascribe a way of working to Mourinho and Conte that they simply have never demonstrated any amplitude for. It was a waste of their and our time as well as our limited funds. The experiment failed just as I and many others predicted.

You can say all you want that they should be able to adapt and I don't honestly disagree with you but they can't and we knew they couldn't before we appointed them.

If you hire Conte or Mourinho then you must provide them with the resources that make the most of their specific abilities. If you are unwilling or incapable of doing so then there's simply no point in appointing them.



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Lilbaz said:
Do we lurch from one strategy to another though? Mourinho, nuno and conte were all counter attacking managers.
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Putting Nuno aside, Jose and Conte were not a strategy. They were an opportunity that presented itself that the board thought would help us to win something now. The fact they play the same style (which is a bit of a stretch) is just a coincidence. If anything, hiring them highlighted even more the fact that we don't have a strategy, because, even though they are "win now" managers, they were ill suited to the squad we had.
 
alekaras said:
Putting Nuno aside, Jose and Conte were not a strategy. They were an opportunity that presented itself that the board thought would help us to win something now. The fact they play the same style (which is a bit of a stretch) is just a coincidence. If anything, hiring them highlighted even more the fact that we don't have a strategy, because, even though they are "win now" managers, they were ill suited to the squad we had.
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Exactly my point in a nutshell.

I'd rather we had a strategy that we actually stuck too rather than lurching from one thing to the other.

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Bishop said:
Yes there is a problem when those world class managers specifically do not work with those kind of players. That is not what got them their success in the first place and it is not the way either of them know how to work.

Neither coach are Pep or Klopp who have both previously excelled at bringing in young players and developing underappreciated gems.

You're trying to ascribe a way of working to Mourinho and Conte that they simply have never demonstrated any amplitude for. It was a waste of their and our time as well as our limited funds. The experiment failed just as I and many others predicted.

You can say all you want that they should be able to adapt and I don't honestly disagree with you but they can't and we knew they couldn't before we appointed them.

If you hire Conte or Mourinho then you must provide them with the resources that make the most of their specific abilities. If you are unwilling or incapable of doing so then there's simply no point in appointing them.
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The original statement was that we should not hire world class managers. They have developed players, Conte turned average wingers into top WBs in the past.
Obviously they prefer the finished article but to say they cannot develop players is not true.

That aside they shouldn't have been appointed, they were not a proper fit for the club. The football they play is horrible and as soon as results turn the knives were always going to be out for them.
However it was a gamble that I can understand.
 
Bishop said:
The old guard could include Davies, Dier, Sanchez, Lloris, Moura, Kane and Son. 5 of whom have been pretty much cast iron starters, the 6th a regular sub when fit. As much as Kane and Son are important to us, at this point building around them is not the wisest course of action despite how painful that might appear to be.

Not to mention players still on the books who have been here a while; Rodon, Ndombele, GLC and Winks.

We have actually done a partial rebuild but sadly it's been across three or four different managers so the influx of new players don't all really fit together in a cohesive system.

No doubt the next coach will also require some new faces and significant surgery to the squad. [emoji52]

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Moura is gone at the end of the season, Lloris will be replaced. Leaves 4. The post that I replied to states we should be building around Kane & Son (you differ), that would leave 3.
Rodon, Ndombele, GLC and Winks haven't really been here for the last 2 years.

We don't know what the new manager will want.
 
LemonadeMoney said:
You know we'd still come runner up to West Ham.
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Everton? half a billion spent to fight in the relegation zone?
West Ham? free stadium, run by literal dildo sellers and thought a revolution was being led by Moyes? also in the relegation zone?

List could go on, as always, we have a lot of issues/challenges/brick, but plenty of clubs will be "hold my beer"
 
Kandi1977 said:
Ridiculous, but since he's included players we've sold/released, the list should include Rose, Walker, BAE, Trippier, Walker-Peters etc.
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‘Player’ singular I think and I guess included as he was still part of our squad in January.

I think the post you’re replying to is just emphasising the bad luck we’ve had to be honest.
 
alekaras said:
Putting Nuno aside, Jose and Conte were not a strategy. They were an opportunity that presented itself that the board thought would help us to win something now. The fact they play the same style (which is a bit of a stretch) is just a coincidence. If anything, hiring them highlighted even more the fact that we don't have a strategy, because, even though they are "win now" managers, they were ill suited to the squad we had.
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Both are win now managers that didn't have the win now backing like they enjoyed at previous clubs.

It's an absolute farce really. I'm not saying that we needed to spend like Chelsea etc but what's the point getting them in knowing what they will need to succeed if we were not prepared to arm them.

As ever we pretend to be a massive error club, but our current set up wants hit and hope.
 
Gazza said:
Both are win now managers that didn't have the win now backing like they enjoyed at previous clubs.

It's an absolute farce really. I'm not saying that we needed to spend like Chelsea etc but what's the point getting them in knowing what they will need to succeed if we were not prepared to arm them.

As ever we pretend to be a massive error club, but our current set up wants hit and hope.
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How does our spending in the last 2-3 years compare with other clubs? What if you then take out the dirty oil money, how does it look then?
 
Glenda's Legs said:
What does our (majority but totally hands-off) owner being in the Bahamas have to do with anything? Almost like I need a fourth bullet point to make this look like a real crisis list.
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Of course its an extra club put in to hit with, abit like those who moan about him having a nice boat and paintings or those making up lies about them syphoning off money. If people want to believe Enic have been poor in factual areas like cups and success thats absolutely fine, people have a right too, its when people starting making up lies and rumours to aid their argument I can't be having. Again, I repeat myself maybe too often, but alot of it stems from those on twitter and youtube aiming for likes and coverage
 
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