Eberechi Eze

[harr1984]

I would say probably closer to impossible that we could have attracted him when PSG were in for him. See also Doue.

For me Kvara is (and was when he moved to PSG) a elite level player, at a great age too. When those players became available and for a "reasonable" fee the biggest clubs in Europe will hardly ever all be sitting on their hands. They will be out of our reach no matter what.

Rather than Kvara being an example of who we could get if we paid up it's an example of the kind of players PSG, Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, City etc will almost always sweep up when available.

But hey, who are the proven elite level players we could sign this summer for around 60m if only we increased our wage offers? I don't know of any.

It's even true for some the very highest rated young and less proven players. Doue to PSG, Endrick and Guler to Real Madrid.

For me the most likely route to getting ellie level players remains getting in early, identifying those top talents the biggest clubs aren't moving for (or like for Bergvall actually competing with Barca). Then developing them.

Or finding those players a bit under the radar that are better than their reputations so the biggest clubs won't go for them. Typically for those wages won't be the biggest hurdle.

He was just an example, the PSGs and Reals don't sweep up literally every really good player. The idea that we could never of signed a real difference maker if we pushed the boat out more with wages is farcical. We were a consistent Champions League club, one of the best stadiums in Europe playing in the biggest league in the world - and now we are in the CL and won a big European trophy, we are attractive enough. Who is on the market? Who knows, it's not as if all big signings were known to be up for sale but I think it's a cop out to suggest we couldn't get any such players if we were to show the ambition.

It's not like we are asking for a whole team of superstars, but if we signed just two - a top quality established 25 year old CM and winger/forward fudge me that would elevate this team. But we won't, will be a couple of youngsters we hope will turn amazing or a couple of decent level PL standard players - roll on a couple of years, and we will still be going 'Yeah but in a few years we will have an amazing team'.

And I agree, the signing of talented youngsters is the best way for us to go - because of the way we operate....

 

[braineclipse]

He was just an example, the PSGs and Reals don't sweep up literally every really good player. The idea that we could never of signed a real difference maker if we pushed the boat out more with wages is farcical. We were a consistent Champions League club, one of the best stadiums in Europe playing in the biggest league in the world - and now we are in the CL and won a big European trophy, we are attractive enough. Who is on the market? Who knows, it's not as if all big signings were known to be up for sale but I think it's a cop out to suggest we couldn't get any such players if we were to show the ambition.

It's not like we are asking for a whole team of superstars, but if we signed just two - a top quality established 25 year old CM and winger/forward fudge me that would elevate this team. But we won't, will be a couple of youngsters we hope will turn amazing or a couple of decent level PL standard players - roll on a couple of years, and we will still be going 'Yeah but in a few years we will have an amazing team'.

And I agree, the signing of talented youngsters is the best way for us to go - because of the way we operate....

We've signed quite a few good players. I'm definitely not saying we can't. I was talking about proven elite level players like Kvara. We've also signed quite a few difference makers.

Depends what you mean by top quality and established. Is Eze one of them?

 

[Lemonade Money]

Do i drink it, smoke it or eat it.

You smother your naked body, and wait for @Danishfurniturelover to arrive.

 

[Bishop]

I would say probably closer to impossible that we could have attracted him when PSG were in for him. See also Doue.

For me Kvara is (and was when he moved to PSG) a elite level player, at a great age too. When those players became available and for a "reasonable" fee the biggest clubs in Europe will hardly ever all be sitting on their hands. They will be out of our reach no matter what.

Rather than Kvara being an example of who we could get if we paid up it's an example of the kind of players PSG, Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, City etc will almost always sweep up when available.

But hey, who are the proven elite level players we could sign this summer for around 60m if only we increased our wage offers? I don't know of any.

It's even true for some the very highest rated young and less proven players. Doue to PSG, Endrick and Guler to Real Madrid.

For me the most likely route to getting ellie level players remains getting in early, identifying those top talents the biggest clubs aren't moving for (or like for Bergvall actually competing with Barca). Then developing them.

Or finding those players a bit under the radar that are better than their reputations so the biggest clubs won't go for them. Typically for those wages won't be the biggest hurdle.

If you offer enough money you can sign anyone. That we don't do that is both our choice but obviously is based upon our preset financial constraints. That's fine as there are plenty of models to follow. The point I was making earlier though was less so about our lack of signing established top players but our backwards happiness to spend way over the mark for proven average ones.

I'm all for going for punts or undervalued and underdeveloped players, it's literally the model I think we should have consistently been following, but the likes of Sissoko or Richy or even Solanke aren't that. We paid very rich money for players who had already reached their development peak so we knew what kind of players they were and what attributes they possessed.

If we are going to go down a money ball esque route then let's at least be consistent and buy these players at good values. Right now we seem happy buying these younger players but are absolute premiums for doing it. It still doesn't seem to me that we are exploring the market as intelligently as possible.

 

[braineclipse]

If you offer enough money you can sign anyone. That we don't do that is both our choice but obviously is based upon our preset financial constraints. That's fine as there are plenty of models to follow. The point I was making earlier though was less so about our lack of signing established top players but our backwards happiness to spend way over the mark for proven average ones.

I'm all for going for punts or undervalued and underdeveloped players, it's literally the model I think we should have consistently been following, but the likes of Sissoko or Richy or even Solanke aren't that. We paid very rich money for players who had already reached their development peak so we knew what kind of players they were and what attributes they possessed.

If we are going to go down a money ball esque route then let's at least be consistent and buy these players at good values. Right now we seem happy buying these younger players but are absolute premiums for doing it. It still doesn't seem to me that we are exploring the market as intelligently as possible.

Sissoko is a long time ago now, but yeah, I'm not a big fan.

I'm quite happy to see us go down a "moneyball" route with a heavy focus on youth, underdeveloped and undervalued players. But given the state of the squad in recent years we've needed more established players too.

Richy has been plagued by injuries, whereas he wasn't previously. I like and rate Solanke. Both have been important players for us. Them being further along in their development has been useful to us. Richy less so, but again because of injuries. Not sure we could have predicted that.

There has been a clear need for a mixed approach. More "moneyball" and more established players. Think we've gotten that balance fairly well. But had one or two more of the more established players been bigger success stories that would obviously have been better.

Overall I think our recruitment has been good in recent years, but always room for improvement.

 

[DaveT316]

Sissoko is a long time ago now, but yeah, I'm not a big fan.

I'm quite happy to see us go down a "moneyball" route with a heavy focus on youth, underdeveloped and undervalued players. But given the state of the squad in recent years we've needed more established players too.

Richy has been plagued by injuries, whereas he wasn't previously. I like and rate Solanke. Both have been important players for us. Them being further along in their development has been useful to us. Richy less so, but again because of injuries. Not sure we could have predicted that.

There has been a clear need for a mixed approach. More "moneyball" and more established players. Think we've gotten that balance fairly well. But had one or two more of the more established players been bigger success stories that would obviously have been better.

Overall I think our recruitment has been good in recent years, but always room for improvement.

To really kick on this year, I think we need 3 first teamers - DM, WF and CF - and a couple of moneyballers - FB, AM.

 

[elyid]

To really kick on this year, I think we need 3 first teamers - DM, WF and CF - and a couple of moneyballers - FB, AM.

I agree. Sadly Solanke isn’t good enough at CF for me… would love us to blow the bank on Osimehm, but can’t see it happening.

DM is 100% a priority though.

 

[braineclipse]

To really kick on this year, I think we need 3 first teamers - DM, WF and CF - and a couple of moneyballers - FB, AM.

Sounds about right.

Ideally someone who could fill a couple of roles. WF and AM at a high level for example. But probably difficult to find.

CF depends on how the club and Frank see Richarlison for me. Will it just be injury after injury or could he recover. I think Solanke could be really good under Frank and it could be difficult to find a clear upgrade. But we need options and not sure Richarlison can be relied on physically. If he could he would be fine imo.

Really could do with another "moneyballer" that's first team ready and not massively expensive.

 

[billyiddo]

Maybe there are players out there who we could push the boat out on (250k pw types?) but to repeat the point made previously - the level of player who would be a 'sure thing' if available to us, would most likely be courted by others with a bigger pull. Surely the agent of such a player would let it be known to all that Spurs were offering X amount and to match it should they want, in which case if the player was such a sure thing you'd expect one of the clubs above us in the pecking order to make a move.

I generally think the type of player that would slip through the net of the bigger clubs to join us would be those that have question marks over them, which then throws doubt over their worth at that price point. Signing a player up to a 5 year 250k pw contract you don't want to be taking a punt - Eze as the case in point, good player but is he guaranteed to be better than Maddison or Kulu? i wouldn't make that bet personally, so then you risk adding a player on inflated wages who offers more or less the same as what you have. A Wirtz or player of that level while yes would likely sign for the right money, but any offer from us would be matched by a stronger team who the player would prefer.

 

[billyiddo]

...what we need to do is build a good/strong team with our chosen approach, trust that with the right players (signings) & manager that we can get back to being in the mix at the top end of the table. Because once we're at that level, those sure thing players are going to be looking at us as a destination club ourselves.

 

[braineclipse]

Maybe there are players out there who we could push the boat out on (250k pw types?) but to repeat the point made previously - the level of player who would be a 'sure thing' if available to us, would most likely be courted by others with a bigger pull. Surely the agent of such a player would let it be known to all that Spurs were offering X amount and to match it should they want, in which case if the player was such a sure thing you'd expect one of the clubs above us in the pecking order to make a move.

I generally think the type of player that would slip through the net of the bigger clubs to join us would be those that have question marks over them, which then throws doubt over their worth at that price point. Signing a player up to a 5 year 250k pw contract you don't want to be taking a punt - Eze as the case in point, good player but is he guaranteed to be better than Maddison or Kulu? i wouldn't make that bet personally, so then you risk adding a player on inflated wages who offers more or less the same as what you have. A Wirtz or player of that level while yes would likely sign for the right money, but any offer from us would be matched by a stronger team who the player would prefer.

Fully agreed.

Reports of Saudi Sportswashing Machine putting in a bid for 55m for Elanga. I know we're not the same at them, but still, would we be happy with that. Good player, PL proven, but not great as such imo. But we need some signings in that kind of category too. Perhaps less so now than in the last couple of years, but with the CL and the number of games we probably need a couple players in that kind of category.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Maybe there are players out there who we could push the boat out on (250k pw types?) but to repeat the point made previously - the level of player who would be a 'sure thing' if available to us, would most likely be courted by others with a bigger pull. Surely the agent of such a player would let it be known to all that Spurs were offering X amount and to match it should they want, in which case if the player was such a sure thing you'd expect one of the clubs above us in the pecking order to make a move.

exactly, like you say it’s mentioned every time this comes up and either forgotten or ignored when the subject comes around again.

 

[Muttley]

Maybe there are players out there who we could push the boat out on (250k pw types?) but to repeat the point made previously - the level of player who would be a 'sure thing' if available to us, would most likely be courted by others with a bigger pull. Surely the agent of such a player would let it be known to all that Spurs were offering X amount and to match it should they want, in which case if the player was such a sure thing you'd expect one of the clubs above us in the pecking order to make a move.

I generally think the type of player that would slip through the net of the bigger clubs to join us would be those that have question marks over them, which then throws doubt over their worth at that price point. Signing a player up to a 5 year 250k pw contract you don't want to be taking a punt - Eze as the case in point, good player but is he guaranteed to be better than Maddison or Kulu? i wouldn't make that bet personally, so then you risk adding a player on inflated wages who offers more or less the same as what you have. A Wirtz or player of that level while yes would likely sign for the right money, but any offer from us would be matched by a stronger team who the player would prefer.

I agree. I actually sucks to be Spurs in our market position. We don't have the brand attraction and we don't have the recent history of multiple trophies especially compared to those big clubs who compete in one or two horse races each year. Kane figured that one out.

Personally, I'm all in favour of over-paying for younger players. Take Kvaratskhelia as an example. Where was he 5 years ago? - Rubin Kazan. Where was he 3 years go? - Napoli. Where is he now? - PSG. There is clearly a time in that chronology where Spurs could have tried to overpay and give it their best shot to land him. In the context of us being a big club, I can only assume he was always on our radar. Even more in the future now Lange and Munn have taken data approaches to a new level. You're not extracting Kvara when Napoli are on that tremendous Serie A league winning season and once he's elite, you know he won't end up at Spurs. Just before that, there is every opportunity.

All Spurs can do is keep their own house optimised. Get the multi-year stability and consistency we haven't had since prime Poch. Don't be finishing 17th in the league. That won't attract these players. We need to create a really competitive unit under Frank and organically grow the salaries as players get to their prime.

We've bought the 16-21 year olds. Now we need to buy the 21-26 year olds in my opinion. Then you eventually get an age gap about the same as we had when we had Dembele/Vertongen at one end and Dele at the other.

 

[braineclipse]

I agree. I actually sucks to be Spurs in our market position. We don't have the brand attraction and we don't have the recent history of multiple trophies especially compared to those big clubs who compete in one or two horse races each year. Kane figured that one out.

Personally, I'm all in favour of over-paying for younger players. Take Kvaratskhelia as an example. Where was he 5 years ago? - Rubin Kazan. Where was he 3 years go? - Napoli. Where is he now? - PSG. There is clearly a time in that chronology where Spurs could have tried to overpay and give it their best shot to land him. In the context of us being a big club, I can only assume he was always on our radar. Even more in the future now Lange and Munn have taken data approaches to a new level. You're not extracting Kvara when Napoli are on that tremendous Serie A league winning season and once he's elite, you know he won't end up at Spurs. Just before that, there is every opportunity.

All Spurs can do is keep their own house optimised. Get the multi-year stability and consistency we haven't had since prime Poch. Don't be finishing 17th in the league. That won't attract these players. We need to create a really competitive unit under Frank and organically grow the salaries as players get to their prime.

We've bought the 16-21 year olds. Now we need to buy the 21-26 year olds in my opinion. Then you eventually get an age gap about the same as we had when we had Dembele/Vertongen at one end and Dele at the other.

We've bought both the 16-21 year olds and the 21-26 year olds (quite a few players we've bought in the last years fit in that bracket). We need to keep buying in both those categories, and buy smart. And we need to avoid the expensive flops like we've seen at times in the past.

Just as an example. I still feel good about Solanke, think he will do well. But even if last season is about as good as it gets with him here that's "fine". Obviously better would be better, but not all signings will be massive hits. A good hard working player who does a good job, but perhaps cost a bit too much for what we got isn't a big problem, it's a small manageable problem. But the expensive flops can set us back years.

 

[Muttley]

We've bought both the 16-21 year olds and the 21-26 year olds (quite a few players we've bought in the last years fit in that bracket). We need to keep buying in both those categories, and buy smart. And we need to avoid the expensive flops like we've seen at times in the past.

Just as an example. I still feel good about Solanke, think he will do well. But even if last season is about as good as it gets with him here that's "fine". Obviously better would be better, but not all signings will be massive hits. A good hard working player who does a good job, but perhaps cost a bit too much for what we got isn't a big problem, it's a small manageable problem. But the expensive flops can set us back years.

True, I didn't articulate myself so well above. I think we bought volume at an age where we can fill the funnel of club trained, and I agree that we should always be doing that. So including our own academy, we ended up with....

Keeley, Kinsky, Dorrington, Phillips, Vuskovic, Takai, Gray, Bergvall, Donley, Devine, Olusesi, Sarr, Hall, Abbott, Moore, Yang, Ajayi, Odobert, Tel, Scarlett, Veliz, Lankshear, Melia, Feeney

Completely different context of course for each signing, but generically it is about 75%+ purchase rate from the outside in the 16-21 age range, at least for the ones on our 1st team radar. I'm wondering whether we need to keep acquiring at the current rate or whether we can now slow it down a little.

Obviously, you don't want to be purchasing at this rate in the 21-26 year old category. What you do need is a couple each window, 3 max.

I reckon basic maths would say that if we could churn 4 a season and 2 come from outside and 2 come from U21 progression we'd have as healthy a Spurs as I've ever seen. It will be built on a very strong foundation.

 

[Muttley]

But the expensive flops can set us back years.

I wanted to take this one separately. I think it's fair to say that in a few cases like Rebrov or Tanguy, it probably did really hurt us. I'm not sure in our new cashflow model it does hurt us as much though. I can imagine us buying a Ndombele this summer would be more of a minor bump rather than what we saw in the last 2 decades. The club's cashflow is so much more healthier nowadays.