Dele Alli

[Spur of the moment]

Mourinho likes possession-based football?

I think you mean few managers appreciate more than Jose how dangerous it is to give away possession.

I think you mean he doesn't mind defenders conceding possession so long as they get the ball away from the danger area.

Why else do we end up conceding 70% of possession against the top sides?

 

[billyiddo]

If he was as good as you believe then he would play more but we are going around in circles, we will have to agree to disagree as you think he is the player who could play in our system and i do not think he can ( at least at the moment) As i have said earlier we shall see what happens as the season goes on.

We're not going round in circles, I just keep hitting a wall.

Would be interesting to hear why you think he isn't suited to our tactics?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We're not going round in circles, I just keep hitting a wall.

Would be interesting to hear why you think he isn't suited to our tactics?

Not very strong defensively
Not got a great range of passing

 

[billyiddo]

Not very strong defensively
Not got a great range of passing

To me defensively as a final third player he more than holds his own and not sure I'd agree on the passing range - at least for a side playing on the break he has shown a good awareness in releasing players in behind the defensive lines, which is paramount I'd say and of course we know from our DESK days he is a good pass and move player in tight spaces.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Not very strong defensively
Not got a great range of passing

And not quick enough to play as one of the two wide players alongside Kane. We are a counter attacking side so we need pace IMO.

He hasn’t improved his decision making either IMO. He’s a good passer but Ndombele, Lo Celso and Son are far more efficient with the ball and know when to release it whereas Alli will take and extra touch or try and nutmeg someone rather than keeping it simple. It’s not that he is not a good passer. But he’s not good enough to be a CM for example. Maybe you could argue he hasn’t had a fair chance under Jose but at the same time he’s not done anything for a long time that makes him undroppable or even a likely starter.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

To me defensively as a final third player he more than holds his own and not sure I'd agree on the passing range - at least for a side playing on the break he has shown a good awareness in releasing players in behind the defensive lines, which is paramount I'd say and of course we know from our DESK days he is a good pass and move player in tight spaces.

I honestly think his passing has improved but it’s still not great
He is very one footed and he isn’t very good at longer passes
Defensively he doesn’t get stuck in, in a sissoko or Hojdjberg way and doesn’t tackle like Lo Celso or Ndombele. He is actually not weak at his defensive side but not as good as the players we have
That’s the issue with dele his strengths are not as good as the players currently occupying the position he plays
I still don’t want to get rid of him though

 

[billyiddo]

And not quick enough to play as one of the two wide players alongside Kane. We are a counter attacking side so we need pace IMO.

He hasn’t improved his decision making either IMO. He’s a good passer but Ndombele, Lo Celso and Son are far more efficient with the ball and know when to release it whereas Alli will take and extra touch or try and nutmeg someone rather than keeping it simple. It’s not that he is not a good passer. But he’s not good enough to be a CM for example. Maybe you could argue he hasn’t had a fair chance under Jose but at the same time he’s not done anything for a long time that makes him undroppable or even a likely starter.

Seeings as it's the ultra low bar of getting some starts in the Europa League that people are wanting to see him being afforded I'm not sure where the talk of being undroppable or a first XI comes from?

He's in the position of once again having to prove himself, which is fair enough now that we have a strong squad and he's been out of sorts for a while. I just don't actually see him being given a fair chance to do that at the moment.

I think if there was a willingness from management to see him earn his way back in then he would have been given the last 2 Europa games to build on the game v Ludogrets and try and put a run of form together - we can't sit here and say he needs to do this or improve that and then not give him the opportunity to do so. He showed a lot of the stuff people want to see from him in that last game, albeit against weak opposition - but you can only perform v what's in front of you. Where was that creativity in the final third v LASK and Antwerp? "Better/more suitable" players supposedly stepped in yet we didn't see anyone providing what he did and both games we were missing something in the final third.

 

[milo]

Not very strong defensively
Not got a great range of passing

I don't agree with that. He's a hard working player, who thrived in a Poch high press. He also put in plenty of unselfish, team performances in the diamond doing plenty of defensive work.

I think that his passing is best in tight spaces, close to goal. He's never really thrived with space in front of him but I think that he's a more than capable deputy in those positions and might be able to adapt his play.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Seeings as it's the ultra low bar of getting some starts in the Europa League that people are wanting to see him being afforded I'm not sure where the talk of being undroppable or a first XI comes from?

He's in the position of once again having to prove himself, which is fair enough now that we have a strong squad and he's been out of sorts for a while. I just don't actually see him being given a fair chance to do that at the moment.

I think if there was a willingness from management to see him earn his way back in then he would have been given the last 2 Europa games to build on the game v Ludogrets and try and put a run of form together - we can't sit here and say he needs to do this or improve that and then not give him the opportunity to do so. He showed a lot of the stuff people want to see from him in that last game, albeit against weak opposition - but you can only perform v what's in front of you. Where was that creativity in the final third v LASK and Antwerp? "Better/more suitable" players supposedly stepped in yet we didn't see anyone providing what he did and both games we were missing something in the final third.

I take your point about him playing well in the EL. I don’t entirely disagree about him not getting a fair chance but I think the bigger conundrum is where does Jose fit him in? Who does he leave out to accommodate Alli for league games? I don’t think Bergwijn has pulled up any trees going forward this season but at the very least he’s put a shift in defensively. He’s the most likely player to make way for Alli but he has almost no pace and I don’t see him dropping Ndombele or Sissoko in CM.

 

[billyiddo]

.

I honestly think his passing has improved but it’s still not great
He is very one footed and he isn’t very good at longer passes
Defensively he doesn’t get stuck in, in a sissoko or Hojdjberg way and doesn’t tackle like Lo Celso or Ndombele. He is actually not weak at his defensive side but not as good as the players we have
That’s the issue with dele his strengths are not as good as the players currently occupying the position he plays
I still don’t want to get rid of him though

He's a more creative final third player than Lo Celso from what we have seen so far but i can't really argue that currently other players are showing more - i just want to see him given a fair crack to earn his place because at the moment i don't see that happening. From there it's down to him to show himself to be either first XI or match day squad quality. But as it stands it looks like a good old freezing out

 

[Bedfordspurs]

.


He's a more creative final third player than Lo Celso from what we have seen so far but i can't really argue that currently other players are showing more - i just want to see him given a fair crack to earn his place because at the moment i don't see that happening. From there it's down to him to show himself to be either first XI or match day squad quality. But as it stands it looks like a good old freezing out

I can’t work out why he wasn’t starting these europa games myself
That’s where I would start him

 

[Jurgen the German]

I don't agree with that. He's a hard working player, who thrived in a Poch high press. He also put in plenty of unselfish, team performances in the diamond doing plenty of defensive work.

I think that his passing is best in tight spaces, close to goal. He's never really thrived with space in front of him but I think that he's a more than capable deputy in those positions and might be able to adapt his play.

I agree re his passing in tight areas. But for me his decision making lets him down. He over complicates things or just doesn’t know when to release the ball, when to play a simple pass and knowing there’s a time and a place to try something audacious. If he plays then it has to be as one of the front three as I don’t think his passing and decision making is good enough to be a CM. Along with his tackling as Bedford pointed out. Sissoko is a horrible passer but he’s very effective when it comes to the ugly side of the game.

 

[billyiddo]

I take your point about him playing well in the EL. I don’t entirely disagree about him not getting a fair chance but I think the bigger conundrum is where does Jose fit him in? Who does he leave out to accommodate Alli for league games? I don’t think Bergwijn has pulled up any trees going forward this season but at the very least he’s put a shift in defensively. He’s the most likely player to make way for Alli but he has almost no pace and I don’t see him dropping Ndombele or Sissoko in CM.

Well I'd say you're thinking too far ahead there with regards to who drops out to make way - that's why I say he should have got the EL games. If he plays well in those next 2 games in that advanced CM creative position then that's where you fit him in should you need to rotate out someone or if there form drops, injury etc - but now we're in the position that he still needs to earn his way back in but with little to no obvious games where he can realistically be given the chance to do so - so basically he's been frozen out.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't agree with that. He's a hard working player, who thrived in a Poch high press. He also put in plenty of unselfish, team performances in the diamond doing plenty of defensive work.

I think that his passing is best in tight spaces, close to goal. He's never really thrived with space in front of him but I think that he's a more than capable deputy in those positions and might be able to adapt his play.

Your talking about defending in a press
We don’t play like that
We do a half press at best
And his short passing is good
His passing over range isn’t IMO

 

[billyiddo]

I can’t work out why he wasn’t starting these europa games myself
That’s where I would start him

I think it's already been decided that he's out the door and all this talk about tactics and performance is moot. Mourinho don't want him and he's not interested in having his mind changed. In fairness i think that's fair enough - if you don't like a player/person you don't like them. But i'll oppose all these arguments stating he isn't suited or whatever because i think they're wrong.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think it's already been decided that he's out the door and all this talk about tactics and performance is moot

Maybe
But we will need some English players still here the way we’re going

 

[Jurgen the German]

Well I'd say you're thinking too far ahead there with regards to who drops out to make way - that's why I say he should have got the EL games. If he plays well in those next 2 games in that advanced CM creative position then that's where you fit him in should you need to rotate out someone or if there form drops, injury etc - but now we're in the position that he still needs to earn his way back in but with little to no obvious games where he can realistically be given the chance to do so - so basically he's been frozen out.

Stoke in the league cup could be an opportunity for him. It’s a big game that Jose will want to win of course as we need trophies but we’re in a busy period of games and players need to be rotated.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think it's already been decided that he's out the door and all this talk about tactics and performance is moot. Mourinho don't want him and he's not interested in having his mind changed. In fairness i think that's fair enough - if you don't like a player/person you don't like them. But i'll oppose all these arguments stating he isn't suited or whatever because i think they're wrong.

Doesn’t want him/doesn’t see where he fits in and hasn’t been consistently a top player for years now, which goes back to the previous manager as well. I wasn’t a massive Jose fan before he was our manager and was ambivalent when he joined but for all his faults he is practical above all else and makes hard decisions that with all due respect to the previous manager just couldn’t/wouldn’t do at times.

 

[billyiddo]

Doesn’t want him/doesn’t see where he fits in and hasn’t been consistently a top player for years now, which goes back to the previous manager as well. I wasn’t a massive Jose fan before he was our manager and was ambivalent when he joined but for all his faults he is practical above all else and makes hard decisions that with all due respect to the previous manager just couldn’t/wouldn’t do at times.

I'd wager his drop from being a top player consistently would coincide quite neatly with Sissoko and Winks becoming our first choice central midfield pairing - which funnily enough is probably the time when our CBs all started to look really poor as well. Not enough linking the midfield with attack meaning Alli and Eriksen dropping deeper and deeper to get on the ball and not enough protection, defensively. That midfield pairing has a lot to answer for imv. Anyway...

Not sure he was ever bad enough to be dropped, certainly didn't have much depth in those areas at that time to see an obvious solution waiting in the wings?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'd wager his drop from being a top player consistently would coincide quite neatly with Sissoko and Winks becoming our first choice central midfield pairing - which funnily enough is probably the time when our CBs all started to look really poor as well. Not enough linking the midfield with attack meaning Alli and Eriksen dropping deeper and deeper to get on the ball and not enough protection, defensively. That midfield pairing has a lot to answer for imv. Anyway...

Not sure he was ever bad enough to be dropped, certainly didn't have much depth in those areas at that time to see an obvious solution waiting in the wings?

And he also played CF too in that period