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Berlin terror attack

Grays_1890 said:
Ok well I respect someones life or lose of life more than I do someone elses perceived right to claim asylum.

Israel suffer more than us from the fight within, thats true as do, Turkey, a number of African countries and the sub continent, I am saying we are a higher target for external threats, thats Target not victim, Target and I am happy to restrict someones rights (thats a vague word because in rights) if it ensured the safety of the British public.

And the word freedoms is really another vague term, in the interest of world safety do I get the freedoms of the world? Behave, if I go to Canada and the US I now go through a visa and check process, if I go to Kuwait I need a pre travel VISA so I am not sure what freedoms you feel others are entitled to or would be missing out on?

Questions - would you say Berlin or Paris or Brussels is a just a small price to pay as long as peoples rights and freedoms are respected?
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So you would severely limit asylum seekers and perhaps immigration in the interest of security?

How about rights for British citizens? Would you go as far as more surveillance, less anonymity, perhaps even low threshold tracking and phone tapping if there's a suspicion? Watch lists to put people on if there's some suspicion and heavy investment in security?

I'm not sure if I've given you the impression that I think "others" are entitled to a lot of freedom in Britain. I'm Norwegian myself and I'm fine with what I have to go through to travel to Britain. I'm more talking in terms of what freedoms you think citizens should have to give up in the interest of security.

I think the price our generation has had to pay for freedom through enduring terrorism is a very small price compared to what previous generations have had to endure. I think we should be very careful before we start trading freedom for security. The freedoms we in "the west" have are taken for granted by way too many and has a tremendous value for us.
 
assylm and immigration are two different things, I think we should take asylum seekers when they are genuine because they are coming from places where they are in danger,

Immigration though is not as needed because we can make our lazy benefits claimants work full time like grown ups should, not 16 hours a week and then the rest topped up in working benefits and housing benefits, the were a lot like this in a warehouse I used to run.

Also once the asylum seekers have learnt English they can go work, pension age should be raised for civil servants none of this retiring early because the homeopathic doctor(quack working from a converted garage next to their house) says they have depression.
 
Another option is to only allow people in that can offer something to the country. Doctors, Nurses, skilled workers etc. That is the only way the UK can improve. People wont like it and see it as racist but its about time a harder line is taken. The innocent refugees will unfortunately be the ones that lose out them most. Of course some will come here and make a life for themselves and get on with it, but the cost of just one life is worth doing it in my opinion.
 
Spursman said:
Another option is to only allow people in that can offer something to the country. Doctors, Nurses, skilled workers etc. That is the only way the UK can improve. People wont like it and see it as racist but its about time a harder line is taken. The innocent refugees will unfortunately be the ones that lose out them most. Of course some will come here and make a life for themselves and get on with it, but the cost of just one life is worth doing it in my opinion.
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But how do we deal with those that already here?

Second or third generation offspring of migrant families, radicalised online or locally, coming from down the road or the town across, not overseas.

They are born here, so there's no stopping them at the border.

I don't know the answer but I guess education and being able to offer youngsters a sense of hope and belonging have to be in there somewhere.
 
LutonSpurs said:
So the Asylum seeker arrested who was Pakistani has been released without charge. No suspect has been caught or identified.

Anyway thoughts are with the poor victims.

Once the attackers nationality is known for sure you can go back to being angry about immigration.
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I agree, bet it was just a lone nut job like in Nice and Orlando and despite it might seem like a massive about turn from me, I really think those poor sods in Syria should be allowed in, what they are facing is terrible.
 
We need to find a way to let in true refugees of war torn countries like Syria we have a true moral obligation to do so. But at the same time I would be happy for anyone wanting to attack the UK to be taken outside and shot... or at least a full life term with hard labour. So..... (and this maybe extremely naive of me and almost certainly right wing (which I'm not)) but what about truth syrum (does exist, and does it work?).

It's a horrible solution but to ensure that we can take in as many people as is needed.... And ensure our security would something like this be an option?
 
DTA said:
We need to find a way to let in true refugees of war torn countries like Syria we have a true moral obligation to do so. But at the same time I would be happy for anyone wanting to attack the UK to be taken outside and shot... or at least a full life term with hard labour. So..... (and this maybe extremely naive of me and almost certainly right wing (which I'm not)) but what about truth syrum (does exist, and does it work?).

It's a horrible solution but to ensure that we can take in as many people as is needed.... And ensure our security would something like this be an option?
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Doesn't exist to my knowledge.

Religious screening would work. Like I said earlier - tinkle on this Quran, now eat a fry up and have a beer. You're in. Find one wearing sandals with socks - get them to admit that evolution is real and give a dinosaur toy to their kids.
 
LutonSpurs said:
So the Asylum seeker arrested who was Pakistani has been released without charge. No suspect has been caught or identified.

Anyway thoughts are with the poor victims.

Once the attackers nationality is known for sure you can go back to being angry about immigration.
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Are we safe to assume the attacker was a muslamic infidel and be angry about them still?
 
LutonSpurs said:
So the Asylum seeker arrested who was Pakistani has been released without charge. No suspect has been caught or identified.

Anyway thoughts are with the poor victims.

Once the attackers nationality is known for sure you can go back to being angry about immigration.
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My suspicious side says that Merkel will be very happy about that for her own future.
 
Why is there this game where more or less fascist politicians try to use this and other atrocities as a cheap way to push their agenda? It's almost like people are waiting to find out the origin of the perpetrator so they can gloat - you see its the immigrants what done it. Or you see, this isn't about immigration! Does it matter where the perpetrator is from?

UKIP were transparent - they used simple emotive messages people could connect with. If Brisket was about the economy they would lose, so they made it about immigration (see Arron Banks candid interview on Radio 4 where he's super clear about this). But shouldn't this be highlighted, and shown up for what it is? The recent swipes by Farrage, a simple way to get publicity and push his Anti-agenda by piggy backing on the publicity around the deaths of people caused by religious extremism, which has been perpetrated by nationals as well as newly arrived peoples.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Yeah it was always going to be. Every time one of these things breaks in the news I say to myself please don't let it be a Muslim, and more often than not it is and it depresses me. I don't know what to say.
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Yet it has little to do with 99.9% of peoples Islam. A religion which is about compassion and brotherly care for most people. If only the sacred books could be updated for modern life - for Jews, Christians and Islam.

I don't think there is a way to discern and isolate the 0.1% who are more part of a death cult than a religion. Intelligence services are monitoring a lot of that 0.1% however. Maybe UKIP etc should be talking about changing laws to make extreme religious views/ movements that adhered to violence illegal? Rather than capitalise on it as a way to peddle what is essentially racism. Not fully sure how this would be enforced, but it would be more progressive and effective than the balls LePen and Farrage spout. At least we could depot or lock up people who openly preach terror.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Yet it has little to do with 99.9% of peoples Islam. A religion which is about compassion and brotherly care for most people. If only the sacred books could be updated for modern life - for Jews, Christians and Islam.

I don't think there is a way to discern and isolate the 0.1% who are more part of a death cult than a religion. Intelligence services are monitoring a lot of that 0.1% however. Maybe UKIP etc should be talking about changing laws to make extreme religious views/ movements that adhered to violence illegal? Rather than capitalise on it as a way to peddle what is essentially racism. Not fully sure how this would be enforced, but it would be more progressive and effective than the balls LePen and Farrage spout. At least we could depot or lock up people who openly preach terror.
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Disagree. I think it's entirely reasonable to assume a life of hatred and destruction based on sections of both the Bible and the Quran, as do many other atheists who are far better versed in both (Sam Harris for example).

It's to their credit that so many people have tried to teach peace from evil books of murder, prejudice and hatred but they'll always be fighting losing battles.
 
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@scaramanga I get what you're saying. But also disagree. If people wish to have faith (which is normally expressed in commendable ways for example compassion, remorse for ill deeds etc) then why shouldn't they?

Religion for 99% is not a problem. Why not direct attention to the 1% of serious problems that it does cause? War and terrorism the most blatant.

Take progressive religious leaders (who are mainstream) and with the states help, issue updated modernised tenants for the modern world. And outlaw and ostracise any violent associations with religion. Make these people piranhas [emoji23] ideally piranhas if not pariahs. It needs a state and 'church' led movement to update religion. Modern saints or prophets if you will who'll show some leadership.

Sadly the only politicians doing anything that appears revolutionary are repeating racism of years gone by and have little that is truly fresh or progressive. They offer nothing apart from bandwagon politics - seeking attention off backs of others tragedy. Truly parasitic. Sad as if they had some innovative ideas of actual value there is discontent and room for freshness.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
scaramanga said:
Disagree. I think it's entirely reasonable to assume a life of hatred and destruction based on sections of both the Bible and the Quran, as do many other atheists who are far better versed in both (Sam Harris for example).

It's to their credit that so many people have tried to teach peace from evil books of murder, prejudice and hatred but they'll always be fighting losing battles.
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Glad you agree Sam Harris is a clam.
 
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