Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC

[Eriktheviking]

Poch too ? People forget towards the end the football was turgid the transfers that eventually arrived are highly questionable.

But people also forget he essentially had the same team for 4no. years.... he banged on and on about refreshing the squad and the board didnt. Jose said exactly the same in his tenure. Conte said the same.

Many thought Poch fell off the cliff when in fact he identified the issues and tried to sort them but the Board knew better....

 

[elltrev]

surely give Mason this weekend then, and then bring Poch or someone else in. It's unforgivable that players are questioning him now, he's totally lost at the club and he's still here this weekend.

We might win, we're playing a team in 14th with the second lowest goals scored this season, but it's simply a sticking plaster til we inevitably rooster it up the following week. just has to go.

Don’t forget we’ve won 4 of our last 6 league games, including vs Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea. If we beat Forest that’ll be 5 of 7. Things can change very quickly in football, for good as well as for bad.

(I agree Richarlison’s public criticism isn’t a great sign, but it was about personal gametime more than anything else - others might not have the same grievance).

 

[Bishop]

surely give Mason this weekend then, and then bring Poch or someone else in. It's unforgivable that players are questioning him now, he's totally lost at the club and he's still here this weekend.

We might win, we're playing a team in 14th with the second lowest goals scored this season, but it's simply a sticking plaster til we inevitably rooster it up the following week. just has to go.

Do you want to sack him because you're upset about how things are going or because you think literally anyone will improve things? If the club doesn't actually have someone lined up for the role it's pointless sacking Conte now. Do you really want to go through the embrassing managerial merry-go-round again that happened in summer 21?

Sent from my XQ-BC72 using Fapatalk

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Conte pulled off a miracle there, but make no mistake, some have never forgotten/stopped thinking about what a monumentous fudge up sacking/not properly backing Poch was.

I know and that's something I'll never understand. But 'thinking' is one thing, 'posting' is another. I haven't checked it out but I'm pretty sure nobody mentioned the idea of replacing Conte with Pochettino when we were doing well (except maybe Gutter Boy...). I don't know for sure, but I'd expect that only a tiny minority of Spurs fans think about him when we're winning. When we're not doing too well, he casts a much longer shadow. In this case, I was reacting to the idea that Levy 'has to' appoint him by saying he could appoint pretty much anyone if the new guy gets a few Ws early on.

 

[Dicko]

It is nothing short of scandalous that our club appears to be hamstrung by this issue.

True, But they might have a plan in place. Wait for final verdict and sack him or we expect it to go away and carry on as normal (I assume Levy likes him and/or has spoken to Poch etc about working with him if it comes to that). I doubt Levy would keep him around if he foresees any issues.

I agree it's not great though

 

[Diamond Lights]

Do you want to sack him because you're upset about how things are going or because you think literally anyone will improve things? If the club doesn't actually have someone lined up for the role it's pointless sacking Conte now. Do you really want to go through the embrassing managerial merry-go-round again that happened in summer 21?

Sent from my XQ-BC72 using Fapatalk

i worry very much we'll rooster it up.

There's plenty of reasons i want him gone, first and foremost he absolutely WILL be gone this Summer. So why persist?

That's before we even focus on the atrocious football, inability to change and adapt in-game or set up his team with any changes. Everyone knows what we'll put out tomorrow, it's the same crap formation that does not work in this league. The only reason we have won recently is because of players like Harry Kane in our team carrying us like Bale did with AVB years ago.

 

[Dicko]

i worry very much we'll rooster it up.

There's plenty of reasons i want him gone, first and foremost he absolutely WILL be gone this Summer. So why persist?

That's before we even focus on the atrocious football, inability to change and adapt in-game or set up his team with any changes. Everyone knows what we'll put out tomorrow, it's the same crap formation that does not work in this league. The only reason we have won recently is because of players like Harry Kane in our team carrying us like Bale did with AVB years ago.

Are you not worried that a few weeks of Mason etc. could see us drop to 6th or 7th? You say our formation doesn't work but we are winning more than we lose and are still 4th. I'm all for Poch in today but if its Conte vs Unknown/Mason for 2 or 3 games I can wait for now.

Although that would change if we lose badly v Forest lol

 

[Diamond Lights]

I put a few thoughts down yesterday, thought i'd expand a bit more.

1) Conte's time is up in my view. One thing that people have not commented much on (at least on a brief read) is the role Paratici plays in all this. Will he actually sack off Conte as it's his job? questionable.

2) Conte's system. Is it outdated as some have commented? I'm not saying he's gone full Jose but as mentioned before, not many modern managers and certainly in the PL play that style or method. Everyone keeps saying "he needs the players" - but does he? How do you know that will work when many worse teams can pick apart our system? Saudi Sportswashing Machine again case in point, far worse squad, but overran our system easily because they know (like everyone) we have one style of play.

3) Conte's inflexibility again i already highlighted. But his inability to change, it feels like it's almost on purpose. Like, if he gets sacked off now, he'll turn around to next team and say "look my methods work but the players were brick". Maybe so, but again, no ability to adapt until the horse has bolted. If you dont have the players, dont continue shoe horning them into something that doesn't work. Every team knows how we set up, so surely you adapt?

4) I struggle to see how Sarr can make the first XI for a super important derby in the PL, but Spence ("a club signing") can't make the first XI for a Cup game at home to Portsmouth? Really? Might be crazy but i can tell you know if Conte goes and someone like Poch comes in (hypothetical situation to make my point don't shout at me), Spence will end the season as first choice RB. I honestly think that.

5) We've been found out. the methods worked last season but now people know how we play. So any PL manager worth their grain of salt will find us out.

6) some Media comments i came across - links below:

Really good write up from Jonathan Liew in Guardian: "But when a coach’s commitment to the club feels so conditional, why should anybody else sweat and bleed for it? Conte is not wedded to this project as Pep Guardiola is to Emirates Marketing Project or Jürgen Klopp to Liverpool. He does not empathise with Tottenham as Mikel Arteta does with Arsenal or Gareth Ainsworth with Wycombe. This is a job, and a strictly limited-term job at that, a job to keep him going until something better comes along. His priority, career-wise, is simply not to mess up. Grasp that, and everything you see on the pitch makes a little more sense."

Evening Standard: "Conte’s tactical inflexibility was both baffling and costly, as his two-man midfield of 20-year-old Pape Matar Sarr, making his full Premier League debut, and Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg were outnumbered by Arsenal’s magnificent three of Odegaard, Thomas Partey and Granit Xhaka. The trio were frequently supported by left-back Oleksandr Zinchenko or Nketiah, leaving Spurs completely overrun in the middle of the park."

F365: Spurs have not led at half-time in any of their last 10 Premier League games. In all competitions, that number rises to 14. In those 14 games, Spurs have scored precisely one first-half goal – and they still found themselves 2-1 down at half-time that day, against Leeds... Whether it ends now or in a fortnight or in six months, the Conte Experiment is surely over. And with it too should go Daniel Levy’s attempts to Chelsea shortcut his way to success because he blew the moment to do it the right way in 2017 when Spurs had the best young team in the country and Levy, with some mitigation given the stadium build was a large and necessary distraction, failed to back the manager. That team and coach carried on for a while, even somehow reaching a Champions League final along the way, but an opportunity was missed

Overall lads and ladies, i think it's clear Conte isn't wedded to us. Fine. It hasn't worked out. But it feels like it will be death by a thousand cuts. I look at Saudi Sportswashing Machine as a prime example of a team performing to their ability which Conte isn't getting us to do. 2 weeks left of the window, get someone in (yes, i will say Poch sorry), give them some signings and let's continue to rebuild. Our foundations aren't terrible, we should be doing better.

People also seem to be ignoring our form pretty much before and after WC. I wrote this piece, remember we fell behind in like 10 of the 11 games we played over a period.

I also questioned whether his methods are already outdated, maybe i am wrong but again, name me another team playing 3-4-3 in the PL.

It's time for him to go.

 

[DeanoAustin]

i worry very much we'll rooster it up.

There's plenty of reasons i want him gone, first and foremost he absolutely WILL be gone this Summer. So why persist?

That's before we even focus on the atrocious football, inability to change and adapt in-game or set up his team with any changes. Everyone knows what we'll put out tomorrow, it's the same crap formation that does not work in this league. The only reason we have won recently is because of players like Harry Kane in our team carrying us like Bale did with AVB years ago.

Not defending Conte but didn't he win the league with this "crap formation" a few years back?

The danger here is that we think that the manager is the only problem here and someone can come in and magically make things better with a formation change or some personnel tweaks. A new manager, no matter who he is, will not achieve much better results than Conte, he won't start winning us loads of pots. We might just become more enjoyable to watch and not sit with 10 men in our own half when we're chasing a tie. The style will be better - the results won't be much different.

To get better results and win trophies, we need to change more than the manager.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I know and that's something I'll never understand. But 'thinking' is one thing, 'posting' is another. I haven't checked it out but I'm pretty sure nobody mentioned the idea of replacing Conte with Pochettino when we were doing well (except maybe Gutterboy...). I don't know for sure, but I'd expect that only a tiny minority of Spurs fans think about him when we're winning. When we're not doing too well, he casts a much longer shadow. In this case, I was reacting to the idea that Levy 'has to' appoint him by saying he could appoint pretty much anyone if the new guy gets a few Ws early on.

Winning ugly and being a disciplinarian with the players is never sustainable though. It's a short-term fix that has a limited window before everything falls apart. The only way to sustained growth is through nurturing, developing players and bringing a little bit of joy to and unity with the fans. So even though Conte had that great result against Arsenal in the spring, this collapse phase was always just round the corner.

 

[NorwegianSpursFan]

Not defending Conte but didn't he win the league with this "crap formation" a few years back?

The danger here is that we think that the manager is the only problem here and someone can come in and magically make things better with a formation change or some personnel tweaks. A new manager, no matter who he is, will not achieve much better results than Conte, he won't start winning us loads of pots. We might just become more enjoyable to watch and not sit with 10 men in our own half when we're chasing a tie. The style will be better - the results won't be much different.

To get better results and win trophies, we need to change more than the manager.

But isn’t that half the point here, we might still have gone out of the Champions league with a more attack minded manager, but we would atleast have tried to get goals. Not sub on a defender in the 80th minute when we desperatly needed goals. I don’t think the draw itself is what’s getting people upset, it’s the fact that we get all the downside of playing boring safety first football, but none of the upside.

 

[DeanoAustin]

But isn’t that half the point here, we might still have gone out of the Champions league with a more attack minded manager, but we would atleast have tried to get goals. Not sub on a defender in the 80th minute when we desperatly needed goals. I don’t think the draw itself is what’s getting people upset, it’s the fact that we get all the downside of playing boring safety first football, but none of the upside.

I think that's fair and that's why I've turned on Conte. It wasn't getting knocked out the other night. It's the manner of the performance. It's the tactics. They were unforgivable.

Funnily enough, that sub made sense to me and I personally wouldn't hammer him too much for that although I know I'm in the minority and understand why. But how utterly passive we were was incredible when chasing a tie. Especially with, lets be fair, a wealth of attacking talent against a mediocre site notoriously poor away from home.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Winning ugly and being a disciplinarian with the players is never sustainable though. It's a short-term fix that has a limited window before everything falls apart. The only way to sustained growth is through nurturing, developing players and bringing a little bit of joy to and unity with the fans. So even though Conte had that great result against Arsenal in the spring, this collapse phase was always just round the corner.

It used to work, though. Worked for Guy Roux in France and Sir Alex for decades. Cruyff wasn't much fun to be around if you hear his former player and you could argue even now that Guardiola isn't a ray of sunshine either. But things change and mentalities evolve. What passes for 'sustainable' today was considered 'short-term' in the 60s. The truth is, whether you're a nice guy or Mourinho, you get 3-5 years at a given club, at best. I agree that managers like Conte and Mourinho don't get much good-will from the fans though and that, when they eventually get the sack, they're not missed the same way Pochettino is at this club.

However, I think that it's more important to assess how long a manager can stay at the top, rather than how long he can stay at a given club. That list is much shorter: Ancelotti, certainly, Guardiola, possibly - although he hasn't done as well with City as he did with Barcelona... And then, who? My beef with re-appointing Pochettino is that football moves faster than most managers. I'd rather look for the next forward-thinking manager on his way to the top than buy a bag of lemons and hope Pochettino can 'work his magic' a second time. But I agree it's easier said than done and maybe we need to exorcise that particular demon - or I need to be proved wrong.

 

[DubSpur]

Not defending Conte but didn't he win the league with this "crap formation" a few years back?

Does my head in the moaning about the formation. It's not the formation that's negative, it's the way that Conte has us playing it that is negative.
No matter what formation he plays it would be negative. If he switched to 433 it would end up being 4 at the back, the wide forwards dropping back to create a 5 in midfield and Kane wandering around by himself just in front of them. It would be slow and nothing like the 433 that Klopp uses.
There's been plenty of teams that have used 343 and the football has been entertaining because those teams played it in a positive way.

 

[Diamond Lights]

Not defending Conte but didn't he win the league with this "crap formation" a few years back?

The danger here is that we think that the manager is the only problem here and someone can come in and magically make things better with a formation change or some personnel tweaks. A new manager, no matter who he is, will not achieve much better results than Conte, he won't start winning us loads of pots. We might just become more enjoyable to watch and not sit with 10 men in our own half when we're chasing a tie. The style will be better - the results won't be much different.

To get better results and win trophies, we need to change more than the manager.

2017 title win (6 years ago), let's not forget Chelsea were champions just 2 years before that season too, hardly in the doldrums.

Since that title win, City, Liverpool (and say it under my breath... Arsenal....) have changed the game. He also won the league in Italy with this formation but not sure you can compare Serie A directly to PL. My personal point is, no one is playing this formation/tactics and EVERY other team in Top 8 plays attacking, posession football. So either Conte's a genius or out of touch in today's game.

Our defence is shoddy, did we go out to Milan because of our defence or lack of attack?

Our attackers are: Kane, Son, Kulusevski, Richarlison, Danjuma

0.9xG over two games vs Milan.

If you have strength in one area, you adapt and play to your strengths.

2 other things:

1) apparently our fan base was superb Weds night before kick off. But Conte's tactics killed the mood 30mins in, we did our part, he didn't do his.

2) Chelsea had the same issue as us, and went out and attacked the other team. we didn't.

It's not that we don't have the players to attack, we do, we just have a brick formation and tactical instruction that holds us back.

 

[Diamond Lights]

Does my head in the moaning about the formation. It's not the formation that's negative, it's the way that Conte has us playing it that is negative.
No matter what formation he plays it would be negative. If he switched to 433 it would end up being 4 at the back, the wide forwards dropping back to create a 5 in midfield and Kane wandering around by himself just in front of them. It would be slow and nothing like the 433 that Klopp uses.
There's been plenty of teams that have used 343 and the football has been entertaining because those teams played it in a positive way.

Agree i keep saying formation but i guess what i mean is a bit of both, a bit of the formation but the tactical instruction to sit back and not attack is intertwined.

 

[alekaras]

I think a lot of people don't realise what it takes to succeed at the highest level. There are probably a lot of people who've played football at a higher level than I did but one thing I always lacked is that self-belief that makes people immune to criticism and setbacks. Footballers are often described as simpletons and while most of them aren't the sharpest tool in the box, the best ones never give up. If you think others around you are better players (regardless of whether they are or not) or if you start second-guessing yourself because of a comment you heard, you end up watching every game from the sidelines. Romario, for instance, was absolute dingdonghead but he was also so confident that he made people around him believe he was the best thing since sliced bread.

Talent's good. Being able to work hard is critical but if you can't convince yourself that no matter what, you'll get what you want at the end of the day then you don't belong at the highest level. That's why you see managers say they can salvage a season even when it's obvious to everyone that they won't make up for lost ground and that's why guys like these will blame anything and anyone else before they admit to their own shortcomings. You'd have to know him personally to be sure but my guess is that money is secondary to Conte. Unless they sack him, he'll keep on trying (without changing anything though) because, from my (admittedly, very limited) experience, that's how these people work.

This all makes sense, if he had a long contract and was trying to save his job. But he knows he's gone and he doesn't even want to be here.

But I don't know him either so, on the flip side, he might be thinking "I'm going to get you to finish in the top 4, even if I'm outta here" purely to make a point and for his stint at Spurs to not be that much of a stain on his career. I get that managers and players at this level need to have an incredible amount of self-belief, but what will allow them to stay at this level is also some level self-awareness, so they can focus on their weaknesses and continue to get better.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It used to work, though. Worked for Guy Roux in France and Sir Alex for decades. Cruyff wasn't much fun to be around if you hear his former player and you could argue even now that Guardiola isn't a ray of sunshine either. But things change and mentalities evolve. What passes for 'sustainable' today was considered 'short-term' in the 60s. The truth is, whether you're a nice guy or Mourinho, you get 3-5 years at a given club, at best. I agree that managers like Conte and Mourinho don't get much good-will from the fans though and that, when they eventually get the sack, they're not missed the same way Pochettino is at this club.

However, I think that it's more important to assess how long a manager can stay at the top, rather than how long he can stay at a given club. That list is much shorter: Ancelotti, certainly, Guardiola, possibly - although he hasn't done as well with City as he did with Barcelona... And then, who? My beef with re-appointing Pochettino is that football moves faster than most managers. I'd rather look for the next forward-thinking manager on his way to the top than buy a bag of lemons and hope Pochettino can 'work his magic' a second time. But I agree it's easier said than done and maybe we need to exorcise that particular demon - or I need to be proved wrong.

There was a thing wasn't there - Mourinho couldn't manage millennials. Maybe that is what has changed compared to 10 or 20 years ago - this generation expects leaders with more developed emotional intelligence, and don't respond to simple bullies.

 

[DTA]

Formations and more than that instructions are killing this side.

Take Son, he is having a mare of a season, but at the same time he is being constantly called in to midfield areas to receive the ball with his back to goal, and he is fudging awful at it. That’s got effect his confidence, to the extent that even with things that he is good at, he isn’t doing.

I think people are underestimating the feel good factor as well.

there is none.

The team is given instructions to play slowly pass back, move the ball around and the opposition out of position before attacking. It’s actually playing to our weaknesses which is criminal with who we have up top.

 

[DeanoAustin]

2017 title win (6 years ago), let's not forget Chelsea were champions just 2 years before that season too, hardly in the doldrums.

Since that title win, City, Liverpool (and say it under my breath... Arsenal....) have changed the game. He also won the league in Italy with this formation but not sure you can compare Serie A directly to PL. My personal point is, no one is playing this formation/tactics and EVERY other team in Top 8 plays attacking, posession football. So either Conte's a genius or out of touch in today's game.

Our defence is shoddy, did we go out to Milan because of our defence or lack of attack?

Our attackers are: Kane, Son, Kulusevski, Richarlison, Danjuma

0.9xG over two games vs Milan.

If you have strength in one area, you adapt and play to your strengths.

2 other things:

1) apparently our fan base was superb Weds night before kick off. But Conte's tactics killed the mood 30mins in, we did our part, he didn't do his.

2) Chelsea had the same issue as us, and went out and attacked the other team. we didn't.

It's not that we don't have the players to attack, we do, we just have a brick formation and tactical instruction that holds us back.

I agree with most of your post. Wednesday night was shocking. I couldn't believe what I was watching.

But there's a place for defensive football, there's a place for 3-5-2. I don't like either too much but there isn't just one way to play the game and be successful.

That said, you are spot on. Having Kane, Son, Kulu, Richarlison, Danjuma, Moura and creating dingdong-all over 2 legs is bordering on incompetent. Even worse when you're chasing the tie from the 10th minute of the first leg or whatever. Even worse again when you're chasing the tie for the full 90 minutes on your home patch.

I feel bad for the crowd. I really wanted to go but circumstances prevented it. I was never so happy I missed a game as Wednesday night because that would have seriously tinkled me off even more so in the flesh.