Ange’s system / formation

[Kandi1977]

Also, I loved our attacking play in the beginning of the season! It was absolutely magnificent. Now, not so much, and I have a theory why it's kind of stagnated.

In the beginning the players had learned the general idea, but not rehearsed it enough, so a lot of the play was intuitive and creative. Now the players are more drilled in the system, and it all looks more forced. In addition, the opposition has now figured out ways to make it more difficult for us.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I think he’s done a remarkable job in uniting the club and in changing how we play. The guy is very big picture and is always insightful when he speaks. I always said, top 6 this year would be success, top 4 dreamland stuff. That he has us in the mix for 4th is remarkable.

That’s the positive. On the flip side, I’ve said from pretty much the start that he won’t win us anything. That’s hardly Mystic Meg stuff given our recent history but I don’t believe you can defend the way Ange does and win at this level especially with the 5th or 6th best squad. The use of the full backs is the main problem for me. I also have a wee concern about his man management. I may be wrong, I don’t see him up close, but there are a couple of little signs.

I’ll be happy to be proven wrong about my doubts, I really will. And, based on what he’s done so far, Ange has a lot of credit in the bank to shut the doubters up.

To be fair, whether you're good or bad at defending matters in the long slog of a league campaign. But it matters less in the frenetic one-offs that cup runs usually are.

I agree this system leaves us open and we will be punished a lot over the coming years by teams hitting us where it hurts, playing into the yawning spaces behind the full backs. But while that might prevent a sustained title challenge, I think in one-off cup games, the intensity of our attacking approach matters more - and while this year was an abysmal failure in that sense, I hope in the future we can put one or two cup runs together under Ange.

We used to be able to win things even with terrible defenses, after all - in the cups. So the same dynamic worked for and against us back then.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Also, I loved our attacking play in the beginning of the season! It was absolutely magnificent. Now, not so much, and I have a theory why it's kind of stagnated.

In the beginning the players had learned the general idea, but not rehearsed it enough, so a lot of the play was intuitive and creative. Now the players are more drilled in the system, and it all looks more forced. In addition, the opposition has now figured out ways to make it more difficult for us.

This is an interesting take. We also saw a similar trend for Conte - his first year was great, but as he drilled his system into the players the summer before last, we looked more and more drilled, laboured, uncreative.

I wonder what would have happened if Conte hadn't imploded - would the regression have continued, or at some stage would we have turned a corner where the players felt comfortable enough in the system to try being intuitive again? (I.e, knowing when to pick their moments to break out of the drill and keep the opposition guessing)

We see a similar pattern with Arteta, too. People absolutely thought the same thing - his start was great, but then it became absolutely turgid for a long time while the players played what Goons derisively called a 'semicircle of death', passing laboriously from side to side. But then they turned a corner and now they are deadly. So maybe it's just a necessary phase in a team's evolution, I dunno.

 

[DeanoAustin]

To be fair, whether you're good or bad at defending matters in the long slog of a league campaign. But it matters less in the frenetic one-offs that cup runs usually are.

I agree this system leaves us open and we will be punished a lot over the coming years by teams hitting us where it hurts, playing into the yawning spaces behind the full backs. But while that might prevent a sustained title challenge, I think in one-off cup games, the intensity of our attacking approach matters more - and while this year was an abysmal failure in that sense, I hope in the future we can put one or two cup runs together under Ange.

We used to be able to win things even with terrible defenses, after all - in the cups. So the same dynamic worked for and against us back then.

Yeah, I can see the logic of that. It’s a good argument and while I don’t think it will happen, it could. The danger, in my view, is that under the sort of pressure you need to get over the line in any competition, we’ll be susceptible. Sometimes, it’s all about not making a mistake and I believe our system leaves us wide open to making them especially against the sort of opposition we’ll likely have to beat to win a pot.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Yeah, I can see the logic of that. It’s a good argument and while I don’t think it will happen, it could. The danger, in my view, is that under the sort of pressure you need to get over the line in any competition, we’ll be susceptible. Sometimes, it’s all about not making a mistake and I believe our system leaves us wide open to making them especially against the sort of opposition we’ll likely have to beat to win a pot.

Totally fair, but sometimes the mistakes do even out - our high pressing forces opponents into defensive mistakes, too. So the bet would be that we can score more than we concede, I guess.

 

[glasgowspur]

Also, I loved our attacking play in the beginning of the season! It was absolutely magnificent. Now, not so much, and I have a theory why it's kind of stagnated.

In the beginning the players had learned the general idea, but not rehearsed it enough, so a lot of the play was intuitive and creative. Now the players are more drilled in the system, and it all looks more forced. In addition, the opposition has now figured out ways to make it more difficult for us.

We've definitely lost a lot of the fluidity and improvisation that we had at the start.

 

[tommysvr]

I also have a wee concern about his man management. I may be wrong, I don’t see him up close, but there are a couple of little signs.

What are your concerns, what are the signs and how have you come across them? How do they compare to the players who actually work with him saying how good he is at that part?

 

[Surfless]

If we can get truly great at attacking (his beef constantly is this underachievement) then the defensive frailty of his system will be less exposed. We will just win 4 and 5 - 2 every week.

 

[DeanoAustin]

What are your concerns, what are the signs and how have you come across them? How do they compare to the players who actually work with him saying how good he is at that part?

Nothing conclusive but two things. Agbonlahor during the week said that he spoke to a player who worked under Ange that said his man management isn’t great. Yeah, I know Agbonlahor is a mouth breather but, to be fair, he’s more connected than us and he’s said it on a national platform so you’d imagine he has some inside information.

The Dier interview with The Athletic had two examples. First one was that he dropped from first choice to pretty much “only to be used when we’ve no other option” and said no one ever spoke to him about his situation or change of circumstances. Secondly, in response to the “yes” from Ange when asked if he could afford to let Dier go, Dier said he was a surprised when he heard it and would be disappointed if it was meant the way it sounded but that he wasn’t going to pass judgement without speaking to Ange first.

So, nothing conclusive. Just little warning signs that may be much ado about nothing or may, with the benefit of hindsight, be more than that.

 

[Bishop]

I'm generally rather happy with the system and its intent. I feel that where we lack is some attributes for players in specific roles. Like a DM who can play longer and more intricate passes than Bissouma would make a massive difference, we are never really able to switch the quickly with a pass because all our range is quite short. I also see an improvement in the capabilities of the wide forwards making a big difference also.


It's been a great start to the new system and one that if we stick with it and keep adding more suited players it's one I can see leading some real success.

 

[tommysvr]

Nothing conclusive but two things. Agbonlahor during the week said that he spoke to a player who worked under Ange that said his man management isn’t great. Yeah, I know Agbonlahor is a mouth breather but, to be fair, he’s more connected than us and he’s said it on a national platform so you’d imagine he has some inside information.

The Dier interview with The Athletic had two examples. First one was that he dropped from first choice to pretty much “only to be used when we’ve no other option” and said no one ever spoke to him about his situation or change of circumstances. Secondly, in response to the “yes” from Ange when asked if he could afford to let Dier go, Dier said he was a surprised when he heard it and would be disappointed if it was meant the way it sounded but that he wasn’t going to pass judgement without speaking to Ange first.

So, nothing conclusive. Just little warning signs that may be much ado about nothing or may, with the benefit of hindsight, be more than that.

Right, so this video

Where he says:

“You know what I’ve heard from someone that’s worked under Ange is that he’s very good at his tactics and stuff on the training pitch and stuff, but he’s not a man manager. He’s not friendly with the players and ‘pally’, and I’ve noticed in recent games that in recent games bringing favourites off. Some managers would be like ‘Maddison? You’ll play him til he’s injured, he’s staying on.’ You need a goal last night and you’re bring Maddison off and you’re bringing on Lo Celso. So I think he’s got that hard approach, Ange.”

I mean……..come on, you cannot seriously be judging Ange on that? It’s absolute nonsense. He’s not friendly with players? He’s not pally? No fudging brick. He says that himself. From everything I know of Ange he is the type of manager who gives you everything if you buy in and if there’s a future and if there isn’t he isn’t going to waste his or your time on it. He doesn’t try to be friends with players and he’s very direct.

The situation with Dier — I haven’t read the full article but from snippets I’ve seen he says himself he enjoyed working with Ange and has absolutely no hard feelings — sounds a bit like Craig Moore when he first came into Brisbane, articles here and here. I remember you mentioned the “yes” comment at the time and it sounds to me you made your mind up on Ange’s man management then.

Then of course with just even a little bit of research you’ll find many past players praising the way he dealt with them:

In this article 5 past players (Besart Berisha, Matt Smith, Thomas Broich, Erik Paartalu & Joe Hart) talk about how well he spoke before they even joined: https://theathletic.com/5289644/2024/02/22/ange-postecoglou-call-signings/

Far more in depth with Thomas Broich: https://sport.optus.com.au/news/aus...ostecoglou-celtic-thomas-broich-football-news

Tommy Oar talking about him here and here.

And a good summary of him here: https://theathletic.com/2638629/202...celtics-new-uncompromising-visionary-manager/

It is then not just Postecoglou’s tactical mind that makes him a venerated coach; he has the strength of personality and man-management to complement his footballing philosophies and training ground innovations.

“He’s multi-dimensional, and no critic, player, administrator or fan will understand that until they spend time with him,” Hassett argues. “Some may think he is distant or aloof, but I would say he’s simply uninterested in winning over anyone who doubts him.”

He is not talkative, and not the kind of manager who will try to be a player’s friend, an arm-around-the-shoulder type. In The Age Of Ange, his wife Georgia sardonically described him as “not charismatic or a charmer”, while Cahill talked about how Postecoglou will be largely silent on the training ground but, as a player, you still feel his eyes “burning into the back of your head”.

“There’s a kind of (NFL coaching legend) Vince Lombardi-like echo to his journey,” Hassett expands, “a man who had to wait his turn but soon became a manic winner on the back of principles and performance. Neither suffered fools gladly.”

What he does have, as Broich attests to, is a tireless and fiercely loyal devotion to his charges; both as footballers and as young men.

“He was a mentor to a lot of players. He helped them, not just football-wise, but in how to approach their lives, their jobs,” Broich clarifies. “He can be very distant, and he is not your buddy. He never was. But at the same time, he cared about you so much, and his sole goal is to make you better as a player and as a person. That makes for a great manager, constantly pushing you to be better. But that has to go both ways, with players buying in.

“He had a dry sense of humour, but it was very rare for him to joke around, or create an easy atmosphere. You know that it’s hard work out there. It’s not about kidding around, every single minute is hard work. But the joy comes through all those little accomplishments of improving as players and as a team.”

All of that to say…Gabby Agbonlahor can fuçk right back off to irrelevance. It seems like you and many others are looking for any excuse to find negatives and do their best to make things as unenjoyable as possible, like some masochist. Things are quite obviously not perfect but fudge me give it time to breathe. You decided he wasn’t going to win a trophy before he even had a chance to fart.

It seems like such a common theme. He’s been “found out” or he’s apparently got no plan B, is just copying Pep and plays all out attack at all costs. People eventually convince themselves these things are true when the reality is we’ve seen but a fraction of what he’s going to do as Spurs manager.

Give things time to play out and let’s see how it goes.

 

[glasgowspur]

Right, so this video

Where he says:



I mean……..come on, you cannot seriously be judging Ange on that? It’s absolute nonsense. He’s not friendly with players? He’s not pally? No fudging brick. He says that himself. From everything I know of Ange he is the type of manager who gives you everything if you buy in and if there’s a future and if there isn’t he isn’t going to waste his or your time on it. He doesn’t try to be friends with players and he’s very direct.

The situation with Dier — I haven’t read the full article but from snippets I’ve seen he says himself he enjoyed working with Ange and has absolutely no hard feelings — sounds a bit like Craig Moore when he first came into Brisbane, articles here and here. I remember you mentioned the “yes” comment at the time and it sounds to me you made your mind up on Ange’s man management then.

Then of course with just even a little bit of research you’ll find many past players praising the way he dealt with them:

In this article 5 past players (Besart Berisha, Matt Smith, Thomas Broich, Erik Paartalu & Joe Hart) talk about how well he spoke before they even joined: https://theathletic.com/5289644/2024/02/22/ange-postecoglou-call-signings/

Far more in depth with Thomas Broich: https://sport.optus.com.au/news/aus...ostecoglou-celtic-thomas-broich-football-news

Tommy Oar talking about him here and here.

And a good summary of him here: https://theathletic.com/2638629/202...celtics-new-uncompromising-visionary-manager/



All of that to say…Gabby Agbonlahor can fuçk right back off to irrelevance. It seems like you and many others are looking for any excuse to find negatives and do their best to make things as enjoyable as possible, like some masochist. Things are quite obviously not perfect but fudge me give it time to breathe. You decided he wasn’t going to win a trophy before he even had a chance to fart.

It seems like such a common theme. He’s been “found out” or he’s apparently got no plan B, is just copying Pep and plays all out attack at all costs. People eventually convince themselves these things are true when the reality is we’ve seen but a fraction of what he’s going to do as Spurs manager.

Give things time to play out and let’s see how it goes.

Strikes me that ange has the "man convinced against his will is a man of the same opinion still" attitude.
You need to buy in, you need to convince yourself, ange isn't going to do it and he won't waste time and energy trying to.

 

[Bishop]

Right, so this video

Where he says:



I mean……..come on, you cannot seriously be judging Ange on that? It’s absolute nonsense. He’s not friendly with players? He’s not pally? No fudging brick. He says that himself. From everything I know of Ange he is the type of manager who gives you everything if you buy in and if there’s a future and if there isn’t he isn’t going to waste his or your time on it. He doesn’t try to be friends with players and he’s very direct.

The situation with Dier — I haven’t read the full article but from snippets I’ve seen he says himself he enjoyed working with Ange and has absolutely no hard feelings — sounds a bit like Craig Moore when he first came into Brisbane, articles here and here. I remember you mentioned the “yes” comment at the time and it sounds to me you made your mind up on Ange’s man management then.

Then of course with just even a little bit of research you’ll find many past players praising the way he dealt with them:

In this article 5 past players (Besart Berisha, Matt Smith, Thomas Broich, Erik Paartalu & Joe Hart) talk about how well he spoke before they even joined: https://theathletic.com/5289644/2024/02/22/ange-postecoglou-call-signings/

Far more in depth with Thomas Broich: https://sport.optus.com.au/news/aus...ostecoglou-celtic-thomas-broich-football-news

Tommy Oar talking about him here and here.

And a good summary of him here: https://theathletic.com/2638629/202...celtics-new-uncompromising-visionary-manager/



All of that to say…Gabby Agbonlahor can fuçk right back off to irrelevance. It seems like you and many others are looking for any excuse to find negatives and do their best to make things as enjoyable as possible, like some masochist. Things are quite obviously not perfect but fudge me give it time to breathe. You decided he wasn’t going to win a trophy before he even had a chance to fart.

It seems like such a common theme. He’s been “found out” or he’s apparently got no plan B, is just copying Pep and plays all out attack at all costs. People eventually convince themselves these things are true when the reality is we’ve seen but a fraction of what he’s going to do as Spurs manager.

Give things time to play out and let’s see how it goes.

There are lots of different approaches to man management Gabby seem to think that only the pally, hands on the shoulder type is valid. Clearly that not Ange's style like you note he has said himself. Gabby's has a bit of a simple mind so who care what he even thinks tbh.

 

[Chrissivad]

From everything he says, it feels like Ange wants to win.
So he will do what he feels he needs to to do that.

He just isn't going to be a prick about it like Conte or Jose, but isn't an arm around the players like Harry or Poch.

Hopefully he is somewhere in between. But you need to be pulling in the same direction as him.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Right, so this video

Where he says:



I mean……..come on, you cannot seriously be judging Ange on that? It’s absolute nonsense. He’s not friendly with players? He’s not pally? No fudging brick. He says that himself. From everything I know of Ange he is the type of manager who gives you everything if you buy in and if there’s a future and if there isn’t he isn’t going to waste his or your time on it. He doesn’t try to be friends with players and he’s very direct.

The situation with Dier — I haven’t read the full article but from snippets I’ve seen he says himself he enjoyed working with Ange and has absolutely no hard feelings — sounds a bit like Craig Moore when he first came into Brisbane, articles here and here. I remember you mentioned the “yes” comment at the time and it sounds to me you made your mind up on Ange’s man management then.

Then of course with just even a little bit of research you’ll find many past players praising the way he dealt with them:

In this article 5 past players (Besart Berisha, Matt Smith, Thomas Broich, Erik Paartalu & Joe Hart) talk about how well he spoke before they even joined: https://theathletic.com/5289644/2024/02/22/ange-postecoglou-call-signings/

Far more in depth with Thomas Broich: https://sport.optus.com.au/news/aus...ostecoglou-celtic-thomas-broich-football-news

Tommy Oar talking about him here and here.

And a good summary of him here: https://theathletic.com/2638629/202...celtics-new-uncompromising-visionary-manager/



All of that to say…Gabby Agbonlahor can fuçk right back off to irrelevance. It seems like you and many others are looking for any excuse to find negatives and do their best to make things as unenjoyable as possible, like some masochist. Things are quite obviously not perfect but fudge me give it time to breathe. You decided he wasn’t going to win a trophy before he even had a chance to fart.

It seems like such a common theme. He’s been “found out” or he’s apparently got no plan B, is just copying Pep and plays all out attack at all costs. People eventually convince themselves these things are true when the reality is we’ve seen but a fraction of what he’s going to do as Spurs manager.

Give things time to play out and let’s see how it goes.

Well done. Sorry but a “like” just didn’t seem enough for this post!

 

[DeanoAustin]

Right, so this video

Where he says:



I mean……..come on, you cannot seriously be judging Ange on that? It’s absolute nonsense. He’s not friendly with players? He’s not pally? No fudging brick. He says that himself. From everything I know of Ange he is the type of manager who gives you everything if you buy in and if there’s a future and if there isn’t he isn’t going to waste his or your time on it. He doesn’t try to be friends with players and he’s very direct.

The situation with Dier — I haven’t read the full article but from snippets I’ve seen he says himself he enjoyed working with Ange and has absolutely no hard feelings — sounds a bit like Craig Moore when he first came into Brisbane, articles here and here. I remember you mentioned the “yes” comment at the time and it sounds to me you made your mind up on Ange’s man management then.

Then of course with just even a little bit of research you’ll find many past players praising the way he dealt with them:

In this article 5 past players (Besart Berisha, Matt Smith, Thomas Broich, Erik Paartalu & Joe Hart) talk about how well he spoke before they even joined: https://theathletic.com/5289644/2024/02/22/ange-postecoglou-call-signings/

Far more in depth with Thomas Broich: https://sport.optus.com.au/news/aus...ostecoglou-celtic-thomas-broich-football-news

Tommy Oar talking about him here and here.

And a good summary of him here: https://theathletic.com/2638629/202...celtics-new-uncompromising-visionary-manager/



All of that to say…Gabby Agbonlahor can fuçk right back off to irrelevance. It seems like you and many others are looking for any excuse to find negatives and do their best to make things as unenjoyable as possible, like some masochist. Things are quite obviously not perfect but fudge me give it time to breathe. You decided he wasn’t going to win a trophy before he even had a chance to fart.

It seems like such a common theme. He’s been “found out” or he’s apparently got no plan B, is just copying Pep and plays all out attack at all costs. People eventually convince themselves these things are true when the reality is we’ve seen but a fraction of what he’s going to do as Spurs manager.

Give things time to play out and let’s see how it goes.

Relax, it’s a discussion board. It’s just a point of discussion. I haven’t damned Ange, I haven’t drawn a conclusion on him. It’s a couple of potential warning signs.

Dier was very complimentary of Ange. He came across as very mature. But two things he said youre thinking “that doesn’t sound great” despite Dier’s attempts to not give the journo a headline. Let’s see how it plays out.

 

[tommysvr]

Relax, it’s a discussion board. It’s just a point of discussion. I haven’t damned Ange, I haven’t drawn a conclusion on him. It’s a couple of potential warning signs.

Dier was very complimentary of Ange. He came across as very mature. But two things he said youre thinking “that doesn’t sound great” despite Dier’s attempts to not give the journo a headline. Let’s see how it plays out.

I'm relaxed. Because I put some effort and detail into a rebuke of Agbonlahor you think I'm agro or something?

You've said multiple times you don't think he'll win anything. That sounds like drawing a pretty big conclusion to me.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I'm relaxed. Because I put some effort and detail into a rebuke of Agbonlahor you think I'm agro or something?

You've said multiple times you don't think he'll win anything. That sounds like drawing a pretty big conclusion to me.

I have said multiple times that I don’t believe he’ll win anything but I could be wrong. Look at the interaction with @DubaiSpur above. I gave my rationale why I think we won’t win under Ange, he gives his rationale of why we might and I accept that his rationale may prove to be correct even if I don’t personally believe it will.

None of us can predict the future, only offer an opinion based on knowledge and experience. I’ve gotten enough things wrong not to believe that my predictions are going to always be accurate.

 

[tommysvr]

I have said multiple times that I don’t believe he’ll win anything but I could be wrong. Look at the interaction with @DubaiSpur above. I gave my rationale why I think we won’t win under Ange, he gives his rationale of why we might and I accept that his rationale may prove to be correct even if I don’t personally believe it will.

None of us can predict the future, only offer an opinion based on knowledge and experience. I’ve gotten enough things wrong not to believe that my predictions are going to always be accurate.

Right and I'm not going to hold you to any prediction, I just think it's weird to have ruled something out like that after only a few months. Surely the fun part of football is that we might win something.

Anyway that's beyond the original point and I don't think a 57 year Australian would have gotten anywhere near the Premier League if he wasn't good with people.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Right and I'm not going to hold you to any prediction, I just think it's weird to have ruled something out like that after only a few months. Surely the fun part of football is that we might win something.

Anyway that's beyond the original point and I don't think a 57 year Australian would have gotten anywhere near the Premier League if he wasn't good with people.

We all form opinions on things pretty quickly. That was mine early on based on how we were playing and I’ve seen nothing to change my view. But it’s just my belief based on what I’ve seen in 40 years following the game. I also believed that Jose and Conte would win us a trophy, particularly Conte.

Anyway, if Ange leaves here having never won a trophy, he won’t necessarily have been a failure. Jol, Redknapp and Poch were three of the best managers we’ve had in my time.

A lot of managers have gotten premier league jobs and not been great man managers. That’s not to say Ange isn’t a good man manager, I just said I see some little warning signs. However, no manager is going to be perfect on this stuff, even Fergie made some bad mistakes with Lee Sharpe and Jaap Stam to name but two, it’s just a point of discussion.

The danger with the approach of “if you’re not in, I’m not going to bother” can be that other players look at it and think “fudge me, I could be next.” Let’s take Dier. He seems to have been a fairly popular lad and was a good servant to the club who bought into Ange’s methods. He just wasn’t what Ange wanted in a CB. If the squad perceives that he’s been treated poorly, that’s not a good thing especially because everyone accepts that we need more changes in personnel.